CityArchRiver

jstriebel · PostNov 11, 2014#3512014-11-11T05:58+00:00

I went tonight as well. I came away satisfied if not super impressed. I don't think Kiener is fine the way it is. I think it's dull and uninviting.

I'm not sure that fixing those things requires re-doing the entire thing, but I'm certainly okay with the idea of it.

My worry over the fountain was calmed a bit. They're discussing ways to use lighting attached to Met Square as a means of activating the space in festive ways. The fountain "room" becomes much more interactive than the current fountains, and they seem to want to create an open view of the Courthouse and Arch. I'm okay with that.

The space is also very flexible. They can learn what is working and what isn't an make adjustments. That's a nice thing, too, I think.

I can't speak to whether or not this is "worth" the money, but I think it'll be nice.

Oh, and the future visitors center plans call for a "grab and go" food stand. I'm not exactly sure what that entails, but perhaps there's hope for turning that into something a bit more cafe-ish.

roger wyoming II · PostNov 11, 2014#3522014-11-11T17:00+00:00

Thanks for the reports.... I'm particularly interested in these items:

imran wrote: North boundary will be next to a bike path and will cater to that with bike parking.
They want to continue the City Garden tree-lined walkway but want to use London Plain trees to tie in with the arch grounds.
The landscaped median on Market street will be removed and Kiener plaza will become wider by that difference.

-- I'm interested in knowing details about this bike path.
-- I'm in strong support of extending the tree-lined "hallway" or whatever they call it down to Broadway and up to 11th asap and eventually all the way up the entire mall.
-- I like the idea of removing the landscaped Market Street median.

Something that should strongly be explored is how to improve the Mall experience and overall vitality by tackling some unfortunate shortcomings across the street on Chestnut. I'd love to
-- widen the sidewalk to allow for more outdoor seating areas for the restaurants and
-- enhance the facades of the bleak parking structures -- perhaps adding green wall and tasteful, artistic LED lighting components.

My central lament about the area is that it almost completely fails to take advantage of one of the world's most iconic urban vistas. Market and Chestnut should be lined with cafes and shops and thus people. Although I prefer to blow up the garages and re-build, I think the suggestions above can make a meaningful difference.

pat · PostNov 11, 2014#3532014-11-11T17:10+00:00

I agree with your last comment. I think Kiener needs less green space than what is being proposed. This is the center of downtown. It should be a meeting location for tourists, focal point for buses/transit, cabs etc. Most downtown tours meet there. The visitor's center should have a location. There's plenty of space at the arch grounds or other parts of the gateway mall for a playground or lawn. I like the interactive water feature. Put things there that pay homage to St. Louis and its history. Laclede and Chouteau, Lewis and Clark statues, Louis IX. City Garden and the Arch grounds already accomplish what they've proposed for Kiener.

gary kreie · PostNov 11, 2014#3542014-11-11T18:36+00:00

What would it take for the Gateway Mall to start becoming a shopping district? Imagine, say, H&M, (I have a teen daughter) building a store in place of one of the parking garages to take advantage of all the tourists in that area. What better launch store would really kick off such a highly visible shopping district?

Presbyterian · PostNov 11, 2014#3552014-11-11T18:56+00:00

I also stopped by and asked about the logic of the playground. The architect explained that such a use was prohibited in the federally owned areas of the project. They foresee most visitors driving in and parking in the two Kiener garages on the north edge of the plaza. Kiener then becomes the point from which they and their children embark. The amenities (playground, bistro tables) have that dynamic in mind.

He compared aspects of the design to work they've done at Bryant Park. The pavers will be a mixture of materials including marble. That will be an improvement over the expanses of worn concrete there now. The lighting (from tall poles theatre-style and from the roof of Met Square) will be interesting.

I was hoping for something with a little more wow factor. But the longer the architect spoke, the more I could see it.

gary kreie · PostNov 12, 2014#3562014-11-12T10:41+00:00

It might have been nice to extend the Citygarden canal-like water pool to Kiener.

Dropped Pin
near Gateway Mall, St Louis, MO 63101
https://maps.google.com/?q=38.626917,-9 ... l=en&gl=us

moorlander · PostNov 12, 2014#3572014-11-12T16:23+00:00

That's a fantastic idea Gary

threeonefour · PostNov 12, 2014#3582014-11-12T16:31+00:00

gary kreie wrote:What would it take for the Gateway Mall to start becoming a shopping district? Imagine, say, H&M, (I have a teen daughter) building a store in place of one of the parking garages to take advantage of all the tourists in that area. What better launch store would really kick off such a highly visible shopping district?

That would be especially nice if it involved a redo of one or both of the Kiener garages.

Years ago, when Famous-Barr and Stix, Baer & Fuller dominated the downtown retail scene, and before St. Louis Centre turned downtown shopping outside-in, there was a seamless row of shops and restaurants along Sixth and Seventh streets, just as there were along Olive and Locust streets as well as Washington Avenue. An inviting public place with shopping options in plain view would draw people into those stores and along Sixth and Seventh streets.

Think of Union Square in San Francisco albeit on an obviously much smaller scale. Hopefully ground level retail is an important component of any Railway Exchange redo as well for that same purpose.

gary kreie · PostNov 13, 2014#3592014-11-13T19:07+00:00

Has the city, cityarchriver, or citygarden talked to Peabody, or whoever owns their building, about re-doing their South half-width block between Kiener and citygarden to make it tie the two together. I recall when the building was announced, it was stated that the other half of the lot would be a park -- half a park was better than none in theory. But instead it turned into another corporate patio with fort-like barriers at the corners to signal the public to keep away from "their space". How about an accessible re-design for their half-width block that draws Arch visitors in that direction to wonder what is there, and then allows them to "discover" citygarden just beyond. The space could include an outdoor beer garden, fountains, outdoor restaurant, Cardinals store, and public bathroom access in the tower. And lush shade tree landscaping that links the whole mall into as consistent concept. That level could also be a potential visitor center site.

roger wyoming II · PostNov 13, 2014#3602014-11-13T20:28+00:00

^ nice thoughts there. At minimum the tree-lined hallway should be extended through there but even more could/should be done.

jstriebel · PostNov 13, 2014#3612014-11-13T20:37+00:00

That stupid building is the rare case where I'd love to see the tenants vacate it for another building downtown (preferably new, maybe BPV), and then just straight up tear it down. Less is more there and more is more on the empty lots around downtown.

dbInSouthCity · PostNov 13, 2014#3622014-11-13T20:45+00:00

Owner name: NNN GATEWAY ONE LLC & ETAL
Owner Name (Secondary): THOMSON REUTERS PRPERTY TAX SERVICES INC
P O BOX 847
CARLSBAD, CA 92018

Northside Neighbor · PostNov 14, 2014#3632014-11-14T15:19+00:00

I heard a report on KMOX about the remake of Kiener Plaza. They interviewed Maggie Hales, spokesbabe for City Arch River.

The reporter asked Hales whether there'd be a "beer garden" in the plan? (Remember, KMOX's own Charlie Brennan, to no avail, has pushed for a beer garden to be added to the Arch grounds for years).

Hale responded flatly, "No. We wouldn't want to, (now get this..., wait for it...), *compete* with Ballpark Village. Ballpark Village does beer gardens 'really well'".

Are you friggin kidding me? C+A+R is concerned about competing with Ballpark Village for selling beer? C'mon!

How about the dozens of downtown restaurants seeing a 30-50% reduction in sales since the opening of Ballpark Village?

C+A+R should be doing everything in its power to distribute more people and spending throughout downtown, especially north of Market, rather than worrying about beer sales at Ballpark Village.

This town is sometimes so freaking inbred it makes your head spin!

threeonefour · PostNov 14, 2014#3642014-11-14T15:59+00:00

Charlie Brennan was talking about his biergarten concept on Donnybrook again last night. C+A+R need to pull their heads out of their rears and build one of these in Kiener Plaza or on the arch grounds so I can go have a beer with Charlie.

Northside Neighbor · PostNov 14, 2014#3652014-11-14T16:38+00:00

Well, you can forget about it happening on the Arch grounds, so Kiener is about
it.

And so long as Hales and her crew are deferential to A.B. and the Cardinals, I guess we can forget about a biergarten at Kiener Plaza as well.

God forbid anyone do anything to upset the party over at Ballpark Village and Busch Stadium!

downtown2007 · PostNov 14, 2014#3662014-11-14T17:52+00:00

Northside Neighbor wrote:I heard a report on KMOX about the remake of Kiener Plaza. They interviewed Maggie Hales, spokesbabe for City Arch River.

The reporter asked Hales whether there'd be a "beer garden" in the plan? (Remember, KMOX's own Charlie Brennan, to no avail, has pushed for a beer garden to be added to the Arch grounds for years).

Hale responded flatly, "No. We wouldn't want to, (now get this..., wait for it...), *compete* with Ballpark Village. Ballpark Village does beer gardens 'really well'".

Are you friggin kidding me? C+A+R is concerned about competing with Ballpark Village for selling beer? C'mon!

How about the dozens of downtown restaurants seeing a 30-50% reduction in sales since the opening of Ballpark Village?

C+A+R should be doing everything in its power to distribute more people and spending throughout downtown, especially north of Market, rather than worrying about beer sales at Ballpark Village.

This town is sometimes so freaking inbred it makes your head spin!

Very sad explanation.

dbInSouthCity · PostDec 22, 2014#3672014-12-22T18:38+00:00

http://www.vthreestudios.com/news/2014/ ... ity-vision

gary kreie · PostDec 22, 2014#3682014-12-22T18:59+00:00

Pretty interesting. Is ArchCityRiver considering some of these changes and modifying their design? Nice renderings. Night shots look like they represent sunrise, around 4 AM.

Presbyterian · PostDec 22, 2014#3692014-12-22T19:23+00:00

I'm wondering if we don't already have enough grass rectangles downtown.

urban_dilettante · PostDec 22, 2014#3702014-12-22T19:36+00:00

^ yep. f*cking clueless.

roger wyoming II · PostDec 22, 2014#3712014-12-22T20:07+00:00

The Citygarden is pretty darn impressive dressed in the holiday lights but it was depressing that nobody was enjoying the place when we went by last night. Coupled with a Keiner that had a skating rink, fire pits and other programming it could be a magical place even in Winter... put in a Holiday pop-up shop like the one in downtown Detroit in the RRX and bring downtown alive!

pat · PostDec 22, 2014#3722014-12-22T21:10+00:00

I agree that we don't need more green space.

Second, we don't need a stage there either. Music events can happen on the river or back near soldier's memorial or Ballpark Village now. Kiener is too small for those kinds of events.

Kiener should be a tourist center. A central location for downtown walking or bus tours, shuttles, city information, food truck vendors, bike rental, maps, etc. It has multiple hotels and garages around it and is close to all of our tourist attractions.

We have plenty of areas for civic space for local residents.

roger wyoming II · PostDec 23, 2014#3732014-12-23T17:34+00:00

^ I'm pretty sure the Mall Conservancy was pretty close to announcing a permanent stage closer to the Soldier's Memorial.... not sure what happened to that.

The height of the civic space silliness was when GRG bought the old Switzer lot in the Landing for more park-like space.... we're going to spend tens of millions to replace the Arch garage with civic space and then have visitors go across the other side of the bridge for yet more park? The Landing needs infill.... greet visitors with a café with apartments up top.

And then we have the problem of underprogramming what we do have.... although not public, the OPO Plaza in particular could be utilized much more and help fill Wash Ave establishments.

southcitygent · PostDec 28, 2014#3742014-12-28T17:08+00:00

The story I heard about the Switzer lot was that a developer had it on its radar for a lower quality motel. The powers that be were concerned that if it went through it would impact the Landing direction for years to come. CAR stepped in to land bank the property until a more suitable use could be found which may be one reason they are not investing much money into it. This could all be just hearsay, but my source is pretty reliable.

dbInSouthCity · PostJan 05, 2015#3752015-01-05T00:12+00:00

Sullivan Blvd project is a bit behind schedule, apparently there are issues with utilities. Some of the things dug up are very very old.

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