urbanSTL

vpr611 wrote:This would be my guess

This layout is correct. Residential at Sarah and Papin. Office between residential and the driveway to the parking garage

vpr611 wrote: This would be my guess

Man, that Commerce Bank branch was a big-time missed opportunity for The Grove. Talk about an underutilized piece of land.

^ Yep, but Green Steets & Koman's vision for Sarah Street will be a huge win for the area.  

Vande like Forest Park Parkway is going to be hit and miss in some respects just for the auto and especially St Louis region auto culture where you will get the Commerce Bank Branch but hopefully getting the street grids around built up will make the area.    Can think of a couple other bank branches that are let downs, the bank branch on Brentwood Ave in front of University tower as one in my my mind and even more so is the corner of Delmar & Skinker where I believe you got a Chase bank branch on old Popeye site which is more frustrating when you can look at what should be built in the from of Link Development (walgreens) if I got my bearings straight.   So my rant in general is these stand alone bank branches.   Even my home town which is far from being an urban has a new Chase Bank Branch in a part of downtown that would be better suited for a two - three story corner building 

Couple things on Chroma commercial spaces

Chao baan apparently isn’t doing as well as they thought they do. This is from a friend who dined there last week and ask them

Chroma is trying to get Yolklore to open their 2nd location there.

It looks like the office building and additional retail space is out for Chroma 2, and the number of new apartments will be doubled.  The design would change as well, but still four stories.  At least that is the proposal...

FPSE-Development-Committee-8.27.19-PacketFinal (pdf)

urbanitas wrote: It looks like the office building and additional retail space is out for Chroma 2, and the number of new apartments will be doubled.  The design would change as well, but still four stories.  At least that is the proposal...

FPSE-Development-Committee-8.27.19-PacketFinal (pdf)

I hate this even more. No retail, the office building would've brought a nice new building to this stretch and yet we are left with this thing, and the design is fairly cheap looking. I sure hope that Koman/Green Street consider building the office building on that parking lot at Sarah and Chouteau. 

I guess I can understand dropping the office space as their is still a lot of infill opportunities along Sarah for Green Street/Koman to add office space and build a walkable/dense urban corridor between Chroma and Cortex K.   But also agree on the overall design not nearly as good.

With that in mind, why not keep the corner design with the commercial/retail space as is and just extend that design into the space of former office building?   I would assume the reason is less apartments if you simple extend previous proposal and developers seeing less demand on the retail as the reason(s) on how their new design came out.   Can understand less retail but the killer corner retail from previous rendering adds a lot  

Let's hope that's just a bad rendering.

I feel like a grocery store would do well on the ground floor.  Really surprised no one in the city has been able to lure a TJ's.  You'd think this would be a shoe-in location for that.

Apparently Delmar Loop boosters tried to secure a Trader Joe's six or seven years ago and corporate all but laughed in their face.

I'd love to see TJs there or possibly in that stretch of underused buildings on the East side of Vandeventer, across from Raising Cane's, just north of QT.  Have there been any proposals to redevelop that area?  Seems prime for commercial use.

Regarding the above comment, I wonder if TJs would reconsider the City now that Whole Foods is here and Fresh Thyme is coming soon?  Seems like TJs must have a suburban preference (like Dierbergs unfortunately).

I just can't see a Trader Joe's opening up there.

Trader Joe's does not have a suburban preference, at all. But they do want to see significant road/pedestrian traffic where they open stores. They also look for college-educated populations, among other factors.

If a Trader Joe's is going to open up in the city, I think the company would want it as close to Euclid Ave. in the Central West End as possible. 

I just did a quick search of TJs in other cities.  Seems like in cities our size (KC, Cincy, Pittsburgh and Indy) TJs tend to be in a part of town similar to our Brentwood store:  in the suburbs close to the city, but not actually in the city.  Larger metros like Chicago and NYC have TJs in the city proper.  Seems like we don't have too great of odds at getting a TJs unless they change their business strategy.

Like I said, Trader Joe's wants to see traffic, college-educated populations, and a certain income threshold in the areas that they go. They also look into a few random things such as Bon Appetit subscriptions and things of that nature. For St. Louis and Kansas City and the cities you listed, that is going to be found most commonly in the inner-ring suburbs. 

In just slightly larger cities, like even Minneapolis, you can find Trader Joe's downtown. 

SouthCityJR wrote: I'd love to see TJs there or possibly in that stretch of underused buildings on the East side of Vandeventer, across from Raising Cane's, just north of QT.  Have there been any proposals to redevelop that area?  Seems prime for commercial use.

Regarding the above comment, I wonder if TJs would reconsider the City now that Whole Foods is here and Fresh Thyme is coming soon?  Seems like TJs must have a suburban preference (like Dierbergs unfortunately).

They do.  They have very few urban stores outside of Chicago and the West Coast.  Of all metros even somewhat comparable to St. Louis in size elsewhere, only Denver has more than one city store.  And in urban areas, they are usually within a half-mile or so of a Whole Foods, but not right next to them.  They prefer free-standing stores with ample surface parking in high-traffic retail strips.  As I said in the Cortex thread I think it was, the only places in the city right now that might come close to meeting their preferences would be the Lindell Marketplace area or kitty corner to IKEA (both on Sarah).

The overall design could use some work, but I’m all for replacing the office and retail element more residential.

Residential seems to be what’s working. There’s plenty of office in the pipeline up the street in Cortex. Retail seems to be sluggish generally, there is no shortage of available retail space at Chroma or throughout the Grove, and Sarah is not a retail corridor south of Forest Park Ave. I’d rather see prospective tenants in storefronts on Manchester than Sarah.

Bring on more apartments and FPSE residents.

^ Have to agree with Wabash.  Their is plenty of office development in the pipeline that is relatively close whether you head down the street to CORTEX K, north towards COREX/Foundry and or east towards Iron Hill from Chroma

Also agree that Chroma can scale back on retail when all you do is go around the corner for retail on phase 1 if not mistaken as well as the reality of continued increase in online shopping & delivery.  Where I would disagree with Wabash is save the corner for some retail even it if might take a few years for the neighborhood and density to catch up.

I'm sure this point has been raised elsewhere, but does anyone else find it somewhat ironic that many hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent restoring sooty-grey and coal-black facades back to their original red, white, or tan colors...and now everyone wants sooty-grey and coal-black facades...?   

Regarding Chao Baan, it's a fantastic restaurant and would recommend it highly. Having said that I think the Grove needs to address parking issues. The inconvenience of trying to find a spot and having to park block's away in residential neighborhoods keeps people from patronizing their establishment, especially those of us older folks that just want to grab a bite to eat. The Loop, CWE and South Grand have all been relatively successfull in providing the right balance for patrons.

Isn't the Link Cortex station a half mile from the Grove? Walking or scooting it is a pretty short stroll.

It'd be great if there was a line running down Vandeventer, but let's not start panicking over parking.  That area is finally getting close to where it could be density wise.

^SouthCityGent  specifically stated walking from distance is an issue due to age.

Your solution is to take the metrolink and walk further? 

If parking is keeping people from patronizing restaurants that is an issue. Ideals don't keep businesses running.

Parking is not always density destroying either. Maybe there is simply a need for a public garage in future developments. Hearing the word parking and jamming your head into the sand definitely isn't going to help things in our metro. We can all want things to be different but ignoring reality isn't going to grow the city.