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PostJun 07, 2016#701

Given that the footprint of this project is so large, that Carondelet/Forsyth is a Bike St. Louis route, and that the project is adjacent to a Metrolink station, shouldn't Centene/HOK/Clayco have a ped/bike/transit access plan?

It might just be my cynicism but I don't think ped/bike/transit mode share was considered in the site plan/concept design at all.

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PostJun 07, 2016#702

It's called 'downtown' Clayton. It has multiple buildings 15+ stories. There's a visible skyline from interstate 64.
And that was long before the Crescent even existed.

Why is this "are we urban/suburban" question even a question? Did they really think the Pierre Laclede Towers were eventually going to be torn down for an O'Charley's?

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PostJun 08, 2016#703

I'm not sure I see the problem. The buildings all seem a respectful distance from the Crescent. Views to the south and east are mostly preserved. (Those as weren't already obscured by structures to the south, anyway.) The view to the north will be somewhat impacted, but it will be to new apartments fronting Carondelet Plaza, which seems sensible: like to like as it were. The only really significant impact would be the new tower to the west, which appears to be across a broad pedestrian plaza. And while it would cut evening light it might actually add reflected morning light. Even the traffic impact shouldn't be too severe, since the largest garages would be letting out onto major thoroughfares which the crescent does not front. This nonsense about the equivalent of a ballgame every day just sounds silly. They're talking about a couple thousand spaces spread out in several garages, not the tens of thousands of people and vehicles flooding out of a downtown event all at the same time. Whether or not one cares for the design, I think some of the complaints scream entitlement. This is a proposal that has the potential to help keep and create business in our region. I've no doubt they'll refine it as it goes forward, but so far, I like what I see. The very fact that the auditorium is at the end of the development closest to the transit station tells us something: they want visitors to get a good impression and to be able to easily access the site via transit. (That's the conference space right there. I don't think it's an accident that it's right across the street from Metrolink.)

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PostJun 08, 2016#704

^Yep. Seems to me that only a few units in the Crescent will actually be "blocked in". The new buildings are really spread out. Once the traffic and daylight studies are released, I expect this to be approved with minimal change.

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PostJun 08, 2016#705

The traffic argument is comical. As if Clayton was built just for THEM. Bring on the cranes!

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PostJun 08, 2016#706

^Yes! Busch stadium has a capacity near 50K, average game, what, 20-30K? I doubt Centene is adding a quarter of the lower number.
Dumb argument.
Two, anyone moving into the Crescent had to realize that prime, vacant parcel was going to be developed one day and not just a fiberboard strip mall for a Luxe and a Starbucks. But something significant. (You could call that having foresight, Or Fore-sythe?) Ridiculous!

The whole pushback appears unhinged and one may conclude, reeks of fear.

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PostJun 08, 2016#707

^"The whole pushback appears unhinged and one may conclude, reeks of fear."

Fear? In St. Louis? Never!

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PostJun 08, 2016#708

^ & ^^. I don't find it unhinged at all. They have an interest in protecting their views and their property values, and they have an opportunity to be heard. Complaining about increased traffic and unpleasant design are pretty standard NIMBY talking points - whether sincere or strategic - and they're not unique to St. Louis.

The key is to what extent the substance of their complaints is heeded and accommodated. They have reasons to complain, and they're taking their opportunity to. It's up to the Clayton pols and population to say, "Thanks. The comment period is now closed. We've considered all submissions and statements and are moving forward with this proposal, because it's in the best interest of our community."

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PostJun 08, 2016#709

People say they want to protect their property value, but I don't think that's usually true. Adding a couple thousand jobs with virtually no new residential units would surely increase the price of a condo at the Crescent, even if you're staring at another building. "Property value", in my opinion, is just a stand-in for the status quo. In fact, I'd bet that the residents in attendance at the hearing would happily accept a small decline in property value if it meant that no development would take place.

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PostJun 08, 2016#710

shadrach wrote:^Yes! Busch stadium has a capacity near 50K, average game, what, 20-30K?
Busch Stadium capacity is 44-47k (the latter number is with standing room only tickets).

With 3.2 million tickets sold last year, that an average attendance of about 39,500.

Greg

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PostJun 08, 2016#711

So Centene is adding 39,500 jobs to Clayton!!!!!!!!

^^Unhinged may be too strong a word (though I do imagine NIMBY's to look/behave like Melissa Click, it's a fun image) and I don't mean emotionally unhinged. But not grounded in the reality that they bought a condo in a multi-story building in an urbanized area, the metro's second downtown, adjacent next to a high-value, undeveloped parcel that has had several mega proposals.
What did they think was going to eventaully happen?
You would think people would moved into the Crescent in the hopes that the neighborhood would become exactly what's proposed.
Yes, they can voice concerns, critique, give input and so forth. I get that. But I'm concerned this could foam over into a larger 'Stop All Progress' campaign.

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PostJun 10, 2016#712

From the June 14th BOA agenda

Ordinance – To approve a Funding Agreement with Centene Corporation (Bill No. 6562)
• To consider approving a funding agreement with Centene Corporation regarding redevelopment of certain property

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PostJun 10, 2016#713

Has 2x the # of parking spaces and 1/2 as much interaction with the Metro station necessary to be worth of a TIF. Clayton better be negotiating... :roll:

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PostJun 10, 2016#714

moorlander wrote:From the June 14th BOA agenda

Ordinance – To approve a Funding Agreement with Centene Corporation (Bill No. 6562)
• To consider approving a funding agreement with Centene Corporation regarding redevelopment of certain property


More on the subsidies
Centene, according to city documents, has “asked that the (City of Clayton) consider the potential use of an economic development public-private partnership to facilitate a superior development.”
Options include a variety of tax abatements and a Community Improvement District.

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... j=73939892

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PostJun 10, 2016#715

^ Just what aspects of the proposed development are going to be made "superior"? Or is what we've seen as good as it's going to get?

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PostJun 10, 2016#716

I wonder what contingencies Centene has planned for - its plan B, so to speak. I'm sure they anticipated pushback from the Crescent and could bend on something for them. Adding more apartments would be great. Of course I think deleting some of the plazas would be really smart too, but I'm sure I'm on the wrong side of Clayton sentiment there.

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PostJun 11, 2016#717

15 min of thought experiment trying to improve this site plan. Centene and HOK need to do better.

Red denotes opportunities for ground floor retail


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PostJun 11, 2016#718

That doesn't appear all that different, and where it does I don't see it as an improvement. You've moved some of the garage space away from Forsyth and back to Carondelet Plaza, which could create congestion on CP. You've moved residential away from CP to Forsyth, which will probably have more traffic noise. Your sketch seems to make the implication that the official HOK design doesn't include street level retail in any of the places you've marked in red, but I don't get that reading from the renderings. The "mixed use" structure is in more or less exactly the same spot as you suggest on CP. Both the garage and the future retail in the HOK design could conceivably include street level retail. You've moved the "corporate entrance" away from the metrolink stop and you've made the logical automotive access, at Forsythe and Lee, more confusing, while more easily enabling cutthrough traffic to leave the back of the garage and take CP directly to westbound Forest Park, which sounds like exactly the congestion folks in the Crescent are worried about. Further, by moving the major tower to tract three from tract one you really will start to interfere with morning light on the Crescent, where the HOK tower would be grouped with an already denser and shadowier part of Clayton's skyline. (Moving the tower closer to the metrolink stop makes good sense, but I'm not sure it's worth the cost. And it's only about a block and a half's difference.) I don't really see any advantages to what you propose. I think Centene and HOK have, in fact, already done better. Quite a lot better, really, which is only reasonable since they have studied the subject and invested considerable time.

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PostJun 11, 2016#719

^
My main ideas are:
1a. Create a direct walkable path from the Foryth Metrolink to the office tower(s). Right now (contrary to your claim) the office tower does not front Forsyth station in Centene's proposal. A parking garage would. Pedestrians would have to essentially walk around the perimeter of Tract 3 and double back to access the office.
1b. TOD - Put some retail and residential near Forsyth Metrolink station instead of a garage and auditorium (probably inactive 90% of the time)
2. Provide space for pedestrians that is not a useless/inactive plaza, connects destinations, and provides retail space.
3. Try to reconfigure the mess of a garage superblock in Tract 2 with something that resembles a somewhat urban environment with buildings fronting streets. There is probably a better way to do this from someone with professional experience.

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PostJun 12, 2016#720

Why not just build tract 3 and 4 - putting three office towers in close proximity with some shared outdoor/plaza space and ground floor retail?

The enormous parking garage (tract 2) and performing arts center and office tower with corporate apartment/hotel space (tract 3) all seem extraneous to Centene's core requirement of increased office space. 3 & 4 seem like the best starting points for establishing a dense corporate campus before vanity projects and massive stand-alone garages are pursued.

Does anyone understand the thinking behind a giant stand-alone parking garage that isn't adjacent to or directly below an office tower, that is across the street from another enormous parking garage which seems to be underutilized?

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PostJun 13, 2016#721

Maybe you have more information than I. I don't see any publicly available renderings or plans on HOK's site, so I'm going off the renderings in the NextSTL article, which appear to match what's in Biz and STLToday.
1a. Create a direct walkable path from the Foryth Metrolink to the office tower(s). Right now (contrary to your claim) the office tower does not front Forsyth station in Centene's proposal. A parking garage would. Pedestrians would have to essentially walk around the perimeter of Tract 3 and double back to access the office.
You misread my post. I don't suggest the office tower is adjacent to the Metrolink station. I said the primary entrance is. Unless they plan to move out of their current office tower, which doesn't appear to be in the works, they'll doubtless want to keep the offices mostly together; thus the new tower and garage directly adjacent to the existing offices across Hanley. I don't foresee upper, or even much of middle management riding Metrolink from their digs in West County. (Not much service out there anyway.) I do, however, think customers, guests, and staff might ride Metrolink. The station is half a block closer to the new office tower than the old. Still a walk, but if you can walk from the station now you'll be able to walk when they build the new tower. And the space for guests and customers (by which I mean doctors, hospital administrators, insurance providers, and so forth) is DIRECTLY adjacent to Metrolink. The plan makes it easier for visitors to use transit. And it makes it no harder for employees.

Your plan moves the auditorium a half a block further from the metrolink station. I think the term "civic auditorium" might be causing some of the misunderstanding. Given that it doesn't appear to include any stagehouse I'm assuming it's basically a meeting space. Nice meeting space, but meeting space; more of a classroom than a theatre. (A useful theatre will typically have a fly chimney that is quite visible and at least fifty feet tall; usually more when you move away from high schools. They tend to look a bit like a giant shoebox.) There's none of that in the rendering, so I'm guessing it's not anything like a performing arts space; just a large room with raked seating, a modest stage, and some good AV equipment. A meeting space. A conference room. A "gather round and listen while we wow you" space. It will be useful for press conferences, teleconferencing, continuing education, and so forth, all of which fit tidily into Centene's core business. They may call it a "civic auditorium" for marketing reasons, but make no mistake, it's a business space, not an arts space.

The medical industry is one giant conference after another: conferences about the newest drug, or the newest insurance plan; new software to manage patient care; sales pitches for gadgets and computers; continuing education for doctors, patients, and pharmacy staff . . . they will (and doubtless already do) have a real need for conference space. And there will be lots and lots of fancy customers there. Maybe more than a few of whom will fly in from out of town. And many of the rest will come from Wash U, Barnes, SLU, . . . places with good Metrolink access. But they'll have zero cause to go to the administrative offices. Employees will drive to the garages. Guests might well ride to the conference center.

And between the conference center and the residential tracts on Carondelet Plaza, what do we have? Mixed use. That will likely include some guest rooms, more smaller conference rooms, and perhaps also some retail. Guests like to buy stuff, after all. And they like coffee and maybe food. And sure, there will be a few offices there: a building manager, some service offices, maybe a hospitality office. Catering, perhaps. That sort of thing. Conference spaces mesh well with hotels and restaurants. Big players sometimes have at least a little bit of their own private hotel space. Sometimes even smaller players. And yes, there's some parking there, but it's back away from the entrance. And it's stage three parking, which means it's the piece most likely to change. There is one rendering that looks a bit misleading to me: it seems to show the parking garage directly at the corner, but others contradict it. I think what that is is more likely to be a lobby between the garage and the auditorium. The first floor will almost certainly be a mixture of lobby space, retail, and conference space connecting the hotel, offices, and meeting spaces. The garage will be above and behind that. It's an early rendering of the stage three stuff, and probably among the least detailed and fixed of what's on the site.
1b. TOD - Put some retail and residential near Forsyth Metrolink station instead of a garage and auditorium (probably inactive 90% of the time)
First, I bet you're wrong about your estimate of the utilization of that auditorium. I've worked in the medical industry directly, and I've done a lot of AV rentals to drug reps and medical administrators. I've done quite a few AV installs in lecture halls and auditoriums. (And indeed, in "civic auditoriums" and performing arts spaces.) You're thinking of a different industry than the medical industry I've worked in and with.

But getting back to the plans . . .

They don't want the residential right at the station. That's where they want their fancy guest spaces. Those spaces will BE exactly the TOD you want, but they won't be apartments. Apartments would be primarily for folks working at Centene. They don't need to take Metrolink a block to work everyday. They need it to go to a show or for a business trip. And they can afford to walk a block for those less frequent excursions downtown or to the airport or wherever. Apartments in the middle makes great sense. Garage fronting Forsyth also makes good sense. Thus the larger garage is convenient to residents in the apartments and guests in the conference space, and not too inconvenient to employees in the administrative buildings. And again, note, the conference space is between the garage and Metrolink, so you can get to the conference easily by either route. (I'm sure they'll get both.) The station is at Forsyth and Forest Park. The auditorium and mixed use structure is also at Forsyth and Forest Park. The largest garage is on Forsyth between Carondelet Plaza and Lyle. And in drawings you'll see what surely looks to me like first floor retail fronting Forsyth in that garage. Look closely at this drawing:

https://nextstl.com/wp-content/uploads/Centene-5.jpg

That appears to be the elevation looking east down Forsyth. That surely looks like the old Famous across the street. Doesn't really look like any of the towers on CP, or the Crescent. I'd say that's your street level retail. I think they have it covered. Seriously. Actually, in the more detailed renderings it explicitly shows the first floor or two in each garage being retail.
2. Provide space for pedestrians that is not a useless/inactive plaza, connects destinations, and provides retail space.
To some extent I think they will, but I think you misunderstand their aim. You seem to envision this as a single unified campus. I don't think that's what they have in mind. I think they see it as two separate campuses for two different functions: one for guests (or more accurately customers) and one for administrators. Which is to say one is providing the services and the other, the tall one, is the back office. To some extent they might connect them with residential, but there may not be that much direct pedestrian communication between the two. And I think you're making some assumptions about the garage that aren't founded in the plans I see. Why do you think there won't be street level retail? They already have street level retail in their existing garage. The newest several garages in Clayton that I'm aware of all have retail. Why wouldn't this one? The drawings show something that looks much like retail there. If it's not retail, what is it?
3. Try to reconfigure the mess of a garage superblock in Tract 2 with something that resembles a somewhat urban environment with buildings fronting streets.
First, the superblock is already there. Instead of an empty green lawn of a superblock they're planning to build a garage. I've walked past a lot of garages on a lot of campuses. I don't see a problem, especially if there're stores in it. Could they break it up? Maybe. I'd even guess there will be pedestrian access across it anyway, but maybe not automotive access. Do you really want the traffic flowing out the south side of the garage onto CP? That's what the residents are already worried about. Routing automotive traffic (and there will inevitably be more than a little) onto the major thoroughfare seems reasonable and natural. By keeping the bulk of the traffic off CP that should make CP more walkable, more friendly. That will sell better in the crescent than a plan that puts a major auto exit right into the thick of it. If I read their renderings right there will be retail fronting Forsyth and later residential fronting CP: appropriate buildings fronting appropriate streets. Given my druthers I expect I'd prefer to walk along what will be the shaded side of Forsyth next to Centene's garage and retail than the sunny side next to the bank and the asphalt parking sea on the other side of the street. I'm not sure how, but it's almost as though we're looking at different renderings. To be completely clear, this is what I've seen:

https://nextstl.com/2016/06/centene-unv ... s-project/



I think HOK and Centene probably have a very good idea of who will be using their buildings and why, and I think they've cited things appropriately. What they're showing there looks considerably more urban than anything there right now. It's dense. It's vertical. It's connected. It all looks very permanent and quite decent. Even the generally lower east end looks much more like a dense college campus than a suburban office park. I really think you misunderstand their plans. HOK is a darn fine firm that's done some top notch work. I think they deserve a bit more credit than you're giving them. The plans they have answer most of your back of the napkin objections if you read them carefully.

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PostJun 13, 2016#722

^Will that post be available in paperback or hardcover?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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PostJun 13, 2016#723

We need more pictures in this thread














PostJun 13, 2016#724

Those pictures show up fine on Tapatalk.. What do I need to do so they show up on my pc?

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PostJun 13, 2016#725

wabash wrote:^Will that post be available in paperback or hardcover?


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i'm holding out for the audio book. fingers crossed for Patrick Stewart.

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