urbanSTL

as of today all work has stopped at this project
There were workers with On Strike signs 
Workers streaming out heading to their vehicles
(this is not spam LOL)

^Operating Engineers Local 513 is on strike against the Associated General Contractors. Good to see the other trades honoring the picket lines. They did reach a last minute agreement with the SITE Improvement Association, which are the contractors not part of AGC, so depends on the contractor for whether work will go on or not. And any site with a Project Labor Agreement like NGA or BJC are still working no matter the contractor.

hebeters wrote: ↑

May 03, 2023

as of today all work has stopped at this project
There were workers with On Strike signs 
Workers streaming out heading to their vehicles
(this is not spam LOL)

A big reason we dont see as much development in St. Louis as we should.  Unions.  

God forbid people band together for a decent wage, safe work environment and a decent pension.  What’s next? Communism?

STLAPTS wrote:

hebeters wrote: ↑

May 03, 2023

as of today all work has stopped at this project
There were workers with On Strike signs 
Workers streaming out heading to their vehicles
(this is not spam LOL)

A big reason we dont see as much development in St. Louis as we should.  Unions.  

Totally. Just how Kansas City is struggling too.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

God forbid people band together for a decent wage, safe work environment and a decent pension.  What’s next? Communism?

I just stated fact.  I am all about decent wages, safety, and a good retirement.  No need to misrepresent what I said.   Comparable non-union shops that would be used on a project like the Butlers Brothers building pay their employees the same wages, have the same safe work environments, and the same or better pensions.  The difference being the multiple layers of corrupt corporate bureaucracy that drive up costs.  Unions kill deals in this town by driving up costs.  Thats a fact.

Please, as soon as I saw "STLAPTS" as the last comment on this thread I knew it would be a bunch of anti-worker garbage. There are plenty of cities with a lot more development than St. Louis which have higher union density than we have like New York, DC, Seattle, Minneapolis, etc. 

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

Please, as soon as I saw "STLAPTS" as the last comment on this thread I knew it would be a bunch of anti-worker garbage. There are plenty of cities with a lot more development than St. Louis which have higher union density than we have like New York, DC, Seattle, Minneapolis, etc. 

NY, DC, Seattle, and Minneapolis are all metros whose rent per square foot supports higher construction costs.  St. Louis isn't close to comparable to the aforementioned.  At no point have I been anti-worker.  Another mischaracterization.  

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

^ Right?  Missouri on the whole has union participation at less than 12%.  Hardly a stronghold lol.

I am speaking specifically to the unions influence on the construction industry in St. Louis.  Not union participation as a whole in Missouri compared to the rest of the country.  

STLAPTS wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

God forbid people band together for a decent wage, safe work environment and a decent pension.  What’s next? Communism?

I just stated fact.  I am all about decent wages, safety, and a good retirement.  No need to misrepresent what I said.   Comparable non-union shops that would be used on a project like the Butlers Brothers building pay their employees the same wages, have the same safe work environments, and the same or better pensions.  The difference being the multiple layers of corrupt corporate bureaucracy that drive up costs.  Unions kill deals in this town by driving up costs.  Thats a fact.

The statement that comparable non-union shops offer the same wage,  safer working environments, and the same or better pensions is false.  Study after study shows that non-union shops offer lower wages, provide less training and are not as safe, and transfer the costs of retirement to employees by operating poorer 401(k) type plans that require employee contributions and delay vesting of smaller employer matches.  See:  https://www.dol.gov/general/workcenter/union-advantage.   Jake Rosenfeld at Wash U has extensively researched non-union wage decline.  See:  https://www.epi.org/publication/union-d ... s-growing/.  As far as the statement about "multiple layers of corrupt corporate bureaucracy," what does that mean?  I'll give you that labor costs of union shops are higher, because that is the effect of a union demanding and obtaining better wages and benefits for employees.  What are these layers of corrupt corporate bureaucracy?  

thestratusseekers wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

STLAPTS wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

God forbid people band together for a decent wage, safe work environment and a decent pension.  What’s next? Communism?

I just stated fact.  I am all about decent wages, safety, and a good retirement.  No need to misrepresent what I said.   Comparable non-union shops that would be used on a project like the Butlers Brothers building pay their employees the same wages, have the same safe work environments, and the same or better pensions.  The difference being the multiple layers of corrupt corporate bureaucracy that drive up costs.  Unions kill deals in this town by driving up costs.  Thats a fact.

The statement that comparable non-union shops offer the same wage,  safer working environments, and the same or better pensions is false.  Study after study shows that non-union shops offer lower wages, provide less training and are not as safe, and transfer the costs of retirement to employees by operating poorer 401(k) type plans that require employee contributions and delay vesting of smaller employer matches.  See:  https://www.dol.gov/general/workcenter/union-advantage.   Jake Rosenfeld at Wash U has extensively researched non-union wage decline.  See:  https://www.epi.org/publication/union-d ... s-growing/.  As far as the statement about "multiple layers of corrupt corporate bureaucracy," what does that mean?  I'll give you that labor costs of union shops are higher, because that is the effect of a union demanding and obtaining better wages and benefits for employees.  What are these layers of corrupt corporate bureaucracy?  

I’m speaking from my experience redeveloping and developing projects in St. Louis.

The  5% plus cost difference between a union and non union shop kills a ton of deals.

The risk profile of a 30 million - 100 million real estate development typically  requires an 18% plus return to the general partners and limited partners in a project.

5% doesn’t sound like much but it can be the difference between whether or not a project gets out of the ground.

If I have time tomorrow I can provide you with a long list of very reputable non union national contractors from St. Louis that do provide equal pay, equally safe working environments, and as good or better pensions.

Also, if I can dig up the CBRE study from a few years ago that estimated 50% of proposed projects in St Louis don’t get built because of unions.

I have had a few where the unions made it impossible for me to get permitted in certain municipalities because I wasn’t going to use union labor and several others that wouldn’t pencil out because of cost.

I can only speak from experience. Not some Wash U academic that has never sweated a payroll in his life and likely is out of touch.

Just as anecdotal- Back in my days of doing prevailing wage compliance as part of a job I had, it was never the union contractors that were shorting their employees. Sometimes by a lot.

Unions help labor get well deserved higher pay for their work. We need more high paying jobs in St. Louis that can provide for economic mobility and money to buy bigger and better things. You're fighting one of the most successful and proven methods to raise wages for everyone. Do half of projects not get built because of union labor costs, or do half of projects not get built because we are  a weak market area that can't pencil out the project no matter the labor status of a contractor? Because if you are saying non-union shops pay as well and offer the same or better retirement, I don't know why being union would matter since the contractors don't directly pay union dues. We need good jobs here. Workers shouldn't give up pay so that wealthy investors can make a better return.

That said, I'll go along with the idea that union projects can be more expensive because the pay for the labor is better. I just can't get mad at that, because despite being the owner/operator of a small construction and development business myself, I care about people getting good pay for the use of their time and bodies. I pay my contract workers roughly equivalent to union wages, and it hasn't made me uncompetetive yet.

^Agreed on all points Matt. Also non-union construction jobs are notoriously dangerous, I'd rather have our development not be built with worker injuries or deaths in the process. 

MattnSTL wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

Just as anecdotal- Back in my days of doing prevailing wage compliance as part of a job I had, it was never the union contractors that were shorting their employees. Sometimes by a lot.

Unions help labor get well deserved higher pay for their work. We need more high paying jobs in St. Louis that can provide for economic mobility and money to buy bigger and better things. You're fighting one of the most successful and proven methods to raise wages for everyone. Do half of projects not get built because of union labor costs, or do half of projects not get built because we are  a weak market area that can't pencil out the project no matter the labor status of a contractor? Because if you are saying non-union shops pay as well and offer the same or better retirement, I don't know why being union would matter since the contractors don't directly pay union dues. We need good jobs here. Workers shouldn't give up pay so that wealthy investors can make a better return.

That said, I'll go along with the idea that union projects can be more expensive because the pay for the labor is better. I just can't get mad at that, because despite being the owner/operator of a small construction and development business myself, I care about people getting good pay for the use of their time and bodies. I pay my contract workers roughly equivalent to union wages, and it hasn't made me uncompetetive yet.

Amen.

MattnSTL wrote: ↑

May 04, 2023

Just as anecdotal- Back in my days of doing prevailing wage compliance as part of a job I had, it was never the union contractors that were shorting their employees. Sometimes by a lot.

Unions help labor get well deserved higher pay for their work. We need more high paying jobs in St. Louis that can provide for economic mobility and money to buy bigger and better things. You're fighting one of the most successful and proven methods to raise wages for everyone. Do half of projects not get built because of union labor costs, or do half of projects not get built because we are  a weak market area that can't pencil out the project no matter the labor status of a contractor? Because if you are saying non-union shops pay as well and offer the same or better retirement, I don't know why being union would matter since the contractors don't directly pay union dues. We need good jobs here. Workers shouldn't give up pay so that wealthy investors can make a better return.

That said, I'll go along with the idea that union projects can be more expensive because the pay for the labor is better. I just can't get mad at that, because despite being the owner/operator of a small construction and development business myself, I care about people getting good pay for the use of their time and bodies. I pay my contract workers roughly equivalent to union wages, and it hasn't made me uncompetetive yet.

Bravo!

testimonial
its cantankerous the operators are not even near to an agreement atm

Being back in town, and having gone by the Butler Brothers a few times, it makes me happy to see how cheerful the building is looking these days. A hulking mass now shining bright.

The cleaning did it good, as do the new windows and the removal of that Mid-Century door on Olive. Hopefully this is lit up at night with uplighting as it would really stand out.

Tower Real Estate is marketing the retail space: https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1717-Ol ... /27698193/

LMAO at the nearby retailers including places miles away like Shake Shack and Lion's Choice. Not to mention Tim Hortons which is now hundreds of miles away

Opinion: Maybe some time before any substantial retail fills the Butler
Better chances for the DeBaliviere strip

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

May 16, 2023

LMAO at the nearby retailers including places miles away like Shake Shack and Lion's Choice. Not to mention Tim Hortons which is now hundreds of miles away

Seriously, who wrote this?  "Steps from City Park, the St. Louis City MLS Stadium and parking".  "Located in the Proposed City Commons".  What does that even mean?