urbanSTL

Your post has so many factual errors in it that the mods should delete it...

^^^ That has to be a late April Fools joke, right?
O and Alex, don't forget to mention KC is 5x larger in area, so according to that posters logic, KC should have 5x the population as well... but it dontz.

Anyways... we are almost at 300 pages!

Sorry, but I have to pick this apart.

Becca-STL wrote:Kansas City is Missouri's most populous city with over 130,000 more citizens than St. Louis and is the fastest growing metro area in Missouri (+12.61% compared to +4.83% in STL), growing at a rate 3 times that of St. Louis. It's amazing that when I go back to St. Louis, no one seems to be aware of these facts.

They may know, they just don't care. I think most St. Louisans are too busy to be worrying about how big Kansas City is.

And population growth is only the beginning. There are far more things to do here in the KC metropolitan area.

Like...?

It's so much cleaner and shinier than St. Louis.

Subjective comment from you. In what areas is it cleaner and shinier? Have you seen every part of KC and every part of St. Louis in order to make this statement? And who cares if it's "shinier?" I prefer historic brick buildings, even if they aren't "shiny."

And even in these difficult financial times, this city is continually under construction. From downtown, to the Plaza to Overland Park to the Northland to Lee's Summit, KC is growing and building and completely out performing STL in so many ways.

And how does this current growth compare to STL? Do you have numbers or examples? How does it compare to the growth and development Downtown St. Louis has experienced since 1999? Is this growth in KC good, urban growth, or is it more suburban sprawl? Are all of these developments stable financially?

The new airport here dwarfs the airport in St. Louis and they still use the old airport downtown.

And if we get the China Hub, then it won't really matter how big your airport is.

The tallest building in MO is in KC. In fact only 5 of the tallest buildings in MO is in St. Louis, while 9 are in KC.

That's a nice bit of trivia, but not really relevant to the quality of either city. I don't think how nice a city is necessarily has anything to do with building height. If that is a factor, it's a very minor one to most people.

Every major concert tour in America comes to KC while very few come to STL.

EVERY major concert? Do you have the numbers? Do you have a list comparing the tours that have been to each city?

Tina turner didn't even bring her tour to STL, she Opened her tour at the Sprint Center in KC. Garth Brooks did all 9 of his sold out concerts at the Sprint Center.

So... They're two artists, and not particularly hot at this time. What's the relevance of this? Are you saying that because Tina Turner got her start in St. Louis she should always stop there on tour? Because that's not necessarily always the case.

Cordish Corp. are no more perfect than any other business in America, but, they bring businesses and revitalize urban entertainment districts better than any other company in the U.S.

Nice sales pitch. Do you have numbers of every development company in the U.S.? Or is this also subjective?

Problem with this article is that the writer doesn't understand that the reason why no businesses have sprung up around the new stadium "yet", is because smart businessmen/women are "waiting" for the ballpark project to unfold before signing leases and opening their businesses. Who wouldn't. And no, the Cardinals won't drive in the business that's needed to sustain the area.

And what brought you to this conclusion?

Ballpark Village is the draw, just as the Power and Light District here in KC "is" the draw. KC doesn't even have a sports team downtown in their entertainment district. Yet, the Power and Light District is packed "every" weekend.

So, you are in the Power and Light District every weekend and have seen this for yourself? What about the dress code at the Power and Light District? Would that be a good thing to institute at Ballpark Village if/when it ever gets built? Hard to draw sports fans when you're not allowed to wear sports jerseys in the "District" or "Village" or whatever you call it. The style for many young people is ripped jeans. Nope, none of that in the "District." It's idiotic to impose a dress code (of course they have to wear clothing) in an entertainment district.

The Cordish code bans long, white t-shirts and other fashion staples of the urban look, including excessively baggy clothing, shorts that fall below the top of the calf, shirts that hang below pant pockets, exposed necklaces on men, towels and Timberland boots. However, the Cordish code also bans other attire not typically associated with the urban look, such as athletic wear or sweats, work/construction boots, excessively ripped clothing, baseball hats, bandanas and sunglasses.

Here's the article I am referring to:
http://kctribune.com/article.cfm?articleID=18732

So, Busch Stadium should be looked at as an addition to what will draw consumers and business to the area. Perhaps you should come to KC and take it on a "test drive" then go back to St. Louis and write your articles.

Why? If you don't give any solid facts why should writers? You've only provided opinion here. Besides, what if the Power and Light District fails? Should we go to KC to see what not to do?

If you wonder why St. Louis is going nowhere, you needn't read any further than the negative, defeatist and total lack of understanding or imaginative thinking found in this blog.

So, you spend four solid paragraphs talking about how Kansas City is the Garden of Eden and St. Louis is garbage, and you say that that blog is negative?

It's important that a city does enough of the right things to maintain and drive new residents to the area. St. Louis is doing all the wrong things, again!

Then, please explain what St. Louis is doing wrong and how to fix it.

Listen, the people on this board try to be positive. And there are probably a dozen St. Louis blogs that I read on a semi-regular basis. Most try to be positive. That is not always easy in St. Louis, with the decline of the last 50 years (though it is turning around). I understand St. Louis has its problems, but I don't really understand St. Louisans like yourself who always think the grass is greener somewhere else. If you want something to change in St. Louis, vote for your alderman. Write an email to the mayor. Start your own blog. Start a petition. Get the word out. Get involved. Coming here and complaining about someone else's opinion with your own opinion (and few facts) of your own is not going to solve anything.

And I think the last thing St. Louis needs is a "Village" that nobody can get into because they're not dressed up, especially after a baseball game. This isn't the 1950s. People don't dress up for ball games, and they're not going to go home and change. I can see the "racial discrimination" lawsuit right now.

I realize to you everything is right in KC and everything is wrong in STL, but I think it's more complex than you make it seem. Do you know of all the rehabs and development that has happened in St. Louis in the last decade?

Here's a few that were completed:
The Syndicate-Trust Building
The Paul Brown Building
The Art Lofts
WS Hotel and Spa
The Renaissance Grand (The Statler Hotel and Lennox Hotel) Renovated 1999
Banker's Lofts
Dorsa Lofts
Bee Hat Lofts
The Merchandise Mart Apartments
Lucas Lofts
Washington Avenue Apartments
The Vanguard Lofts
Copia Urban Winery (renovated and opened around 2005, but suffered arson in 2007. I don't know what the current plans are).
The Meridian
The Bogen Lofts
The Avenida Lofts
Jack Thompson Square
Roberts on Washington
Rudman on the Park
Fashion Square
Knickerbocker Lofts
Garment Row Lofts
Grace Lofts
The Monkey Building
Windows on Washington
City Museum (in an old Shoe Company building)
Jewel Lofts
Paristyle lofts
The Ely Walker Lofts
Windows on Washington (1601 Washington)
Railway Lofts
University Lofts
The Ventana Lofts
King Bee Lofts
The Tudor Lofts
GW Lofts
The Continental Building (in Midtown, not Downtown, but a success story nonetheless).
511-555 Washington Avenue (renovated 1987 into office space)
Hadley Square
1128 Washington Avenue
1210 Washington Avenue (Small storefronts)
1409 Washington (renovated early 2000s as gallery space)
Neighborhood Gardens (renovated 2002, north of the Edward Jones Dome).
The International Fur Exchange, American Zinc Building, and the Jefferson Building (nearly demolished in 1997, they instead became a Drury Hotel
Cupples Stations buildings (A few have been renovated, a few more are waiting for financing). http://builtstlouis.net/cupples00.html There used to be a lot more. Quite a few were demolished. Some of the Cupples Stations tunnels are used by the MetroLink trains now.
Eads Bridge (was not used for traffic for a while. Is used by MetroLink and cars now).
Chase Hotel (Central West End) Renovated 2001 as apartments.
City Hospital (in the South Side of the city). Some buildings have been developed (as the Georgian Condominiums) and others are under construction.
Here's the front view of the Georgian
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 6,,0,-2.56
^Granted, you can see on the map a few streets just south of the Georgian, where the pharmacy is going in. There were houses there as recently as the early 2000s, and City Hospital owns that land. So, some demolition did occur.
The St. Louis State Hospital at 5400 Arsenal was renovated, still as a medical facility. The West Wing of the hospital was demolished, though.
http://builtstlouis.net/statehospital01.html
There's also the Woolworth's in Midtown.
http://builtstlouis.net/woolworths01.html
Moolah Temple - Midtown
http://builtstlouis.net/moolah01.html
Homer G. Phillips Hospital on the north side of town.
http://builtstlouis.net/homerphillips.html
Here's Homer G. Phillip's death certificate, which is kind of neat to read
http://www.sos.mo.gov/TIF2PDFConsumer/D ... 272864.pdf
Roberts Lofts on the Plaza
The Merchants Laclede Building (renovated 2003 as a Hilton Hotel)
The Haggerty Memorial Building (renovated into lofts in 2006)
Mississippi Valley Trust Company (renovated in 2000 as office space)
The Pierce Building (not sure if you would call it renovation. It was changed for the worse in 1984 and opened as the Adam's Mark (now Hyatt Hotel)).
http://builtstlouis.net/opos/piercebuilding.html
Motor Lofts 2207 Washington Avenue
Packard Lofts 411 N. 22nd Street
The Marquette Building (renovated 2006)
L&N Railroad Building (renovated 2003)
Lashly & Baer Building (renovated 1979)
The Mark Twain Hotel (Originally Maryland Hotel, later Baltimore Hotel) (weekly rented apartments) renovated 1995-2000
The Wainwright Building (renovated 1970s)
The Truman Building (now the Downtown Urgent Care Center)
Bell Lofts (renovated 2004, City Gourmet (formally City Grocer) on the first floor.
The Pennsylvania building (apparently renovated 2003) http://builtstlouis.net/opos/pennsylvania.html
Ludwig Lofts St. Louis http://www.loftworks-stl.com/properties ... gLofts.htm
Omni Hotel (renovated 1983)
The Thaxton Building (renovated as entertainment space) http://builtstlouis.net/opos/1000blockolive2.html
Farm and Home Building http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stor ... ily52.html
http://ecoabsence.blogspot.com/2009/10/ ... piffy.html
The Lofts @ 315 (renovated 2004)
The Roberts Orphium Theater (formerly the American Theater) renovated 2003
The Coronado (Midtown) http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/01i.html
The Medina Building (Midtown) http://www.allbusiness.com/real-estate/ ... 933-1.html
Fox Theater (Midtown) Restored 1981 http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/05b.html
University Plaza (Midtown) http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/06b.html
Grandell Theater (Midtown) renovated into theater space 1992
Lionberger house (Midtown) renovated 1999, The Meriweather House (Midtown) renovated 2006, http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/06i.html
home of the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra, Powell Symphony Hall (Midtown) renovated 1968. http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/07f.html

Under construction:
St. Louis Centre becoming a parking garage

On hold/uncertain:
The Arcade
The Alexa (Chemical Building) Supposed to resume construction soon
Dillard's (construction expected to begin soon).
Jefferson Arms
Curlee Building (was owned by Pyramid development, which went under a few years ago).
Roberts Building (construction has been halted due to the economy).
1521 Washington Avenue (was Europe nightclub. I'm not sure about it now).
The South Side National Bank (I'm not sure about this one, it had a renovation plan). It's at Grand and Gravois, obviously on the South side of the city.
The Alverne
Mother's Fish Restaurant and 921 Locust Street. Purchased by Robert's Brothers. They planned to turn the St. Louis Design Center next door into an Indigo Hotel, but that plan has since been aborted. The Roberts Brothers purchased the two smaller buildings in order to demolish them, but they have been granted a reprieve because the hotel plan has gone under.
913 Locust http://builtstlouis.net/opos/913locust.html
Metropolitan building (Midtown) (was a Pyramid project) http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/ ... ily94.html
Humboldt Building http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/05g.html
The Sun Theater (Midtown) http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/07a.html
Carter Carburetor Corporation (Midtown) http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/07d.html

Demolished
Switzer Building (had a development plan, but the facade collapsed in a freak storm. The developers still wanted to develop it, but there was not enough of it left for it to be "historic." ) I walked into a pole when I first saw it.
Two buildings (1402, 1404 Washington), though small and unloved, were demolished to make way for the "Skyhouse" project which never happened.
Century Building (dem. 2004)
Ambassador Building (dem. 1996)
Frank J. Prince Hall (Washington University, demolished 2006)
State National Life Insurance Building (dem. 1984)
The International Life Building (imploded 1984)
Pruitt-Igoe buildings (imploded 1972)
The Title Guaranty Building (originally the Lincoln Trust) (dem. 1983)
The Buder Building (originally Missouri Pacific) (imploded 1984)
The American Hotel (demolished 1953)
The Times Building (demolished 1974)
The Cotton Belt Building (orig. Planter's Hotel) (demolished 1976)
The Merchants Exchange Building (demolished 1958)
Rialto Building (demolition date unknown) http://builtstlouis.net/opos/rialto.html
The Veterans Administration Building (demolished between 1970-1975).
The Lutheran Building (demolished 1977)
Chamber of Commerce Building (demolished 1977)
3rd National Bank (demolished 1980)
Fullerton Building (demolished 1969)
The Demenil Building (demolished 1976)
Mark Twain Hotel (original. Demolished 1977)
http://builtstlouis.net/opos/marktwain-original.html
The Holland Building (demolished 1973)
223 N. 7th Street (American Trust Building) Reskinned 1950. Demolished 2002.
7th and Pine (next to Holland Building. Demolished date unknown).
Victoria Building (demolished 1974)
Equitable Building (demolished, date unknown)
The Marquette Building Annex (demolished 1998)
819 Locust Street http://builtstlouis.net/opos/819locust.html
Ava building http://builtstlouis.net/ava01.html burned, then demolished in 1996.
Castleman-Mackay Mansion (Midtown, demolished 1982) http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/02c.html
Missouri Theater demolished 1959 http://cinematreasures.org/theater/3209/
Wagner house (Midtown) demolished 2008 http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/08c.html

You notice most of these demolitions happened pre-1990. It seems like since the 1990s St. Louis has slowed its demolitions of major buildings. I think the late 1990s is around the time that Downtown renovations really started to take off.

No development Plan:
Broida Brothers Building (I'm not sure what is going on with this one). Currently empty.
Thiebe-Stierlin Music Company Building 1006 Olive Street
1007 Olive Street http://builtstlouis.net/opos/1000blockolive3.html

Continuously occupied
Missouri Athletic Club
Lammert Building
Tober Building
1216 Washington Ave (empty in 2008)
1300 Block of Washington (a few store fronts, home to various businesses over the years).
1314 Washington Avenue (home to Goodman's clothing for years, now The Fitness Factory is there.
1326 Washington Avenue (a few storefronts)
1401-1405 (home to various businesses over the years)
Levine Hat Company
1424 Washington (Selah Salon and Day Spa was there, last I had heard)
1523 Washington Avenue (small, plain building. I don't know anything about it).
Railway Exchange Building (first few floors are currently occupied by Macy's I believe)
Frisco Building
Charlie Gitto's Pasta House http://builtstlouis.net/opos/pastahouse.html
Federal Reserve St. Louis
Mercantile Trust
Southwestern Bell Building
Bussone's / La Coney Island 1011 Olive Street Street http://builtstlouis.net/opos/1000blockolive1.html
LGL Center http://builtstlouis.net/opos/lacledegas.html Newest Street View shows a number to call to lease office space in it.
the Sheldon Memorial Theater http://builtstlouis.net/midtown/05h.html

Some of the buildings are still sitting. I can't say that none will be demolished in the future, but many St. Louis buildings (I probably missed a few) have changed over the last decade, mostly for the better. Downtown (and some other areas of the city) didn't get developed by people complaining on a message board. They got developed because people saw an opportunity and they took some initiative and got them developed. Having good historic tax credits (which may be threatened by cuts) helped as well. St. Louis is not completely devoid of progressive people.

By the way, if you want to learn more about the developments in St. Louis, I'd encourage you to check out this site
http://builtstlouis.net/arch.html
Here's a Downtown Map
http://builtstlouis.net/opos/downtown.html
It has a lot of good info, but it doesn't sugarcoat things. Keep in mind, some of the pages are 2-3 years old.

How about some St. Louis Blogs?
http://downtownstlbiz.blogspot.com/
http://stldotage.blogspot.com//
http://ecoabsence.blogspot.com/
http://interact.stltoday.com/blogzone/building-blocks/
http://interact.stltoday.com/blogzone/building-blocks/
http://www.stlouiscitytalk.com/
http://www.beltstl.com/
http://stlouispatina.blogspot.com/
http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/
http://vanishingstl.blogspot.com/
http://stlrising.blogspot.com/
http://livingstlouis.wordpress.com/
http://builtstlouis.blogspot.com/
http://onsl.org/blog/
http://stlouisbricks.blogspot.com/

My lists obviously aren't nearly complete, but I wanted to show you that all is not hopeless, and St. Louis has improved in recent years.

It could be worse. The Downtown renaissance could have never happened. We could be in the process of "right sizing" like Detroit right now (though St. Louis was never that big anyway). Detroit just released a list of the first 500 houses (of thousands) to be demolished and they just recently lost their Lafayette Building. I'm afraid that if developers and some St. Louisans hadn't seen the light in the 1990s, we'd be in the same situation. Sure, protest what you think is wrong, but it could be worse.

I hear people complain about how awful Downtown is, and how St. Louis doesn't have any progressive people and that nothing ever gets done in St. Louis. To an extent that's true, but if these renovations hadn't happened, we may have lost more of our buildings to the wrecking ball by now. And some renovations are ongoing. Sometimes, while trying to change the bad things, we need to stop and smell the rehabbed roses.

She sold me. I'm moving to KC.

It is so funny that an ex-STLer has become afflicted with the ‘KC complex’.

don't kid yourselves folks...she's no more of an ex St. Louisian than I am...

courtland wrote:don't kid yourselves folks...she's no more of an ex St. Louisian than I am...

I was thinking the same thing.

Mark Groth wrote:

Gone Corporate wrote: Focus:I still want this project to work, and I believe it can. We all hate what it is today, and once the credit markets come around enough to support new construction in commercial real estate, I am confident that we will see these buildings rise up. Same time, all those penalties to be levied if incomplete? I hope somebody's keeping track and that we send them the bill for, what, $3M/year until it is complete. That's some good money to put into the City's coffers.

Yeah, what about the penalties? I asked Board of Alderman president Reed about this at a Holly Hills neighborhood meeting and he didn't know what I was refering to. I didn't have my fact either, but his Legislative Director Harry Kennedy gave me his card and asked me to follow up with him. Does anyone have a link to the fines the Cardinals were supposed to pay if construction was not started? Or, do I have to search through 296 pages of this thread

Here's a blurb from a P-D article quoted on page 3 of this thread:

Ballpark Village is also a key reason the city agreed to give the Cardinals tax incentives to stay downtown. The Cardinals are obligated to finish one block of the development by 2009. If the entire Ballpark Village isn't complete by 2011, the team could owe up to $3 million a year in penalties.

Gone Corporate, I would forget about the fines if Stifel Nichols follows through with a Corporate HQ at Ballpark Village. Don't even think twice if Peabody wants follow behind them. Lets face it, the city has struggled to hold onto law firms. The last thing the city needs is to take Stifel Nichols, or Wells Fargo Securities, for granted. This city, downtown and this development, which I believe is the best immediate opportunity for new class A office space, will do well with a top notch corporate HQ or two.

I'm positive the 'penalties' clause in the Cardinals' contract with the city has been renegotiated (I believe the date the penalties kick in has been moved back, not canceled altogether), but so far I've not been able to find a news article to back that up.

-RBB

Well, I'm a few days late in looking after this thread, but I see that BeccaSTL's comments have been sufficiently addressed in multiple rebuttals, and in the case of STLCardsBlues, an exhaustive and rather conclusive rebuttal that shows St. Louis is doing just fine, thank you. I would like to add one point, though...

BeccaSTL, if you're still with us, you may have misconstrued the negativity you've seen in this particular thread. There are some of us out there, myself included, that are very pro-St. Louis but very anti-Ballpark Village. Just because Power & Light appears to be succeeding in Kansas City, it doesn't mean a similar formula is right for St. Louis. If anything, I would argue that it's the wrong approach, because downtown redevelopment in St. Louis has occurred in a more organic fashion over the last decade, and Kansas City really needed the P&L District to have any semblance of life and activity in its downtown after dark. I'm not suggesting that there isn't much more to be done in St. Louis, but STLCardsBlues' list proves that the Gateway City has come a long way in the last decade.

Many of us are fed up with the Cardinals' owners and their broken promises, and many of us believe that the Ballpark Village parcel, divided into multiple parcels and developed separately, could be a much more vibrant and sustainable neighborhood than anything Cordish has on the drawing boards. I was for Ballpark Village initially, but I'm tired of waiting for the Cardinals and Cordish, and at this point, I wish the city could reclaim the land and market it to developers that would jump at the chance to build there once the economy recovers.

But really, it's hard to take this thread seriously. Becca, it'd be helpful to know where you live in Kansas City, and where you lived in St. Louis. So many people that are quick to criticize St. Louis have no clue about the qualities that makes it a special place in which to live.

And, just for the record, I love Kansas City, but not as much as I love St. Louis.

^One major thing most people don't take into consideration, is that what we have here in St. Louis is VERY unappreciated and taken for granted. It is really funny how people leave here and think the grass is so green elsewhere, yet most always come back. I have friends who have lived in the coolest towns, but somehow, some way, they always end up back in STL. I actually know a few KC transplants that love STL and prefer it's more urban/'real city' feel. I wouldn't trade what we have here for much. The history, architecture and culture is unique and something to be proud of. While KC is a nice city, you cannot compare it to STL. The 2 cities are uniquely different.
I have spent significant time in KC and maybe I'm biased, but I'd take STL anyday. Totally different vibes in each city. I am not denying STL has it's issues, but so does KC and so does every city. Regarding the population of the 2 cities, facts are facts, KC is 800K + less (metro area) and that is all that counts. I don't see KC closing the gap anytime soon. I have not heard of major population shifts back to the Midwest. I really do not take serious offense when someone rips STL, but if your going to do it, back it up with real facts and side by side comparisons. Come at it from a logical standpoint. Don't just spew out information for the sake of being confrontational.

From the lobby and through the windows, Stifel's current building (501 N. Broadway) seems great. Not sure why they're even in the market for new space. (expansion?)

More importantly, how much of a gain for downtown would it be if Stifel moves 6 blocks? Seems like treading water. My blocks of downtown (400-600 Washington) would certainly be less vibrant. Infuz (don't begrudge them at all) already moved west 5 blocks.

Downtown needs to attract some new tenants.....

I would love to see Stifel build a major new tower since they have been moving up in financial reputation quite quickly. Something to put their name on with pride. But I would actually like it to be built as close to there current location as possible. I just hope they can aquire more firms from other cities and increase their size.

KMOX news talked to Dewitt about Ballpark Village. Dewitt says work on the design and leasing arragements continues, and there's a 50-50 chance we'll see a groundbreaking this year.

Here is the full story.

http://www.kmox.com/What-does-it-take-t ... e-/6783628

I was hoping we would see a story since the home opener is today. I guess this is really no news, but we did get the answer to when we will start seeing fines.