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PostMar 18, 2009#4176

^I don't know if you are joking or serious, but I actually think a softball field Downtown could actually be pretty cool if done correctly. It would be a quirky thing to have and I think it has promise. That being said, the Ballpark Village site is one of the worst locations you could put it. This is some of the most valuable land in the St. Louis area with the proximity to Ballpark, Metrolink and all 4 Interstates.



Just start building 1 mixed-use tower and I would be satisfied. Just 1 little tower.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4177

Classic!




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PostMar 18, 2009#4178

I am still extremely happy that the City has not backed, nor will it back, BPV with the City's credit line.



Amidst the current economic mess, a BPV under construction now would probably have forced the City to pay part of the bond debentures from its coffers, like KC is forced to do for the P&L District from its general funds. There is a major difference between the City allowing a portion of public funds to subsidize private venture, and another to fully back it with its own credit line.



For this, Mayor Slay and Comptroller Green are to be commended.



Same time, for the mess that BPV has turned into, real justice would be construction not of a softball field, but of an octagon, with the Cardinals' execs fighting it out with Cordish's execs in a no-holds-barred cage match, televised for free to all of Cardinals Nation in penance.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4179

^ I agree......everyone cant throw Slay under the bus for this one. The Cardinals and Cordish are far more responsible than anyone. They totally played St. Louis like a 2nd rate city in this whole episode. They blatantly showed their lack of confidence in the downtown revival/housing market and waited so long that eventually the project wasn't feasible due to the economic downturn. I have no doubt in my mind that if we weren't in a bad economy we would have our P&L District by now. :lol:

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PostMar 18, 2009#4180

goat314 wrote:Classic!





HOLY SH!T. That doesn't look real!!!!! Ha!!! Anyway, I bet the parking will be covered with tents, sponsors, fan activities etc. for the All-Star Game.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4181

anyone taking bets?



if this is "built" I put ten bucks down that its still there ten years from now.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4182

markofucity wrote:anyone taking bets?



if this is "built" I put ten bucks down that its still there ten years from now.
I'll take that bet; make it a larger number, and I'll give you favorable odds.



Reasoning: Even if the markets actually crash & the dollar is torpedoed, such a piece of real estate can't reasonably & prudently go for that long without being developed. Noting the politicians, the speculators, the developers, MLB, and the demands of the citizenry, no way in hell.



Whaddaya say? I'll go five grand with you on this right now.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4183

I'm content with this and I think most people will be as well. Pragmatism by city leaders helped prevent us from being in Kansas City's unenviable situation. For now we'll have a parking lot and some green space, which is fine. I'd be stoked if they could also put in some outdoor basketball hoops. Maybe a small soccer field? Could be an awesome place to have some pickup games...



And it won't be undeveloped for 10 years. I'd wager there will be something tangible within 3-5 years.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4184

Are you ***** KIDDING ME!



Downtown has another parking lot and a softball field?



How podunk is this town!!!!!



What's supposed to be the highest land values and we have basically useless space.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4185

This is absolutely putrid. A Softball Field?!



Instead of a softball field can they build some quick, temporary Beer Gardens? And I don't mean simply throwing up tents. We have five months and an excess labor supply. The project could easily be done in that amount of time.



This is frustrating!

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PostMar 18, 2009#4186

I have no problem with the softball field. Better than a dirt lot.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4187

Doug wrote:Are you f***ing KIDDING ME!



Downtown has another parking lot and a softball field?



How podunk is this town!!!!!



What's supposed to be the highest land values and we have basically useless space.
If you want something else, you pay for it. We're in a recession that's heading toward a depression. Let's try to think with some semblance of reason here.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4188

such a piece of real estate can't reasonably & prudently go for that long without being developed


This is St. Louis, I totally see it going undeveloped for a loooong time.



A 3-5 year time line was too long when they gave that time line 3-5 years ago.



A softball field/parking lot in the middle of downtown? What an embarrassment.



How anyone can support the Cardinals with their money after this insult is beyond me. What a slap in the face to STL.



This seems to be a case for Imminent Domain (a softball field is really the highest use for land in the CBD?), but it seems only people who can't afford to fight back are subject to that particular goodie.

PostMar 18, 2009#4189

innov8ion wrote:If you want something else, you pay for it. We're in a recession that's heading toward a depression. Let's try to think with some semblance of reason here.


So what were we in when plans for BPV were first announced years ago?



The "you pay for it" line is as tiring to me as the "i'm a taxpayer" line is to others.



We were sold a project and a time line which isn't being delivered on.



Talk about bait and switch, fraud even.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4190

^ Full respect, but this is not "bait and switch" or "fraud", legally speaking. This is what happens when the global credit markets implode.



From the mortgage-takers who took out HELOCs on their ARMs for a vacation & a flat screen, to the Wall Street bigwigs who turned their insurance company into a credit-default-swap house, there's a whole lot of blame to go around. There's a freaking ton of underpinning blame. While I sure wish the whole thing was built, I can't damn them under the auspices of misrepresentative criminality.



Same time, this sucks so royally that Cordish's brand value will be less than week-old runny donkey chili crap when the heads of MLB look at the "progression" of BPV in July.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4191

I think it's not too out of line to say that without Cordish in the picture, there would currently be construction of a class A office tower in downtown on this land (Centene). The cardinals would have gained a significant amount of money from the straight up sale of the land to centene, and they could have still completed their supposed development within the new constraints of their owned property. The city should be commended for not erroneously backing bonds which we would be on the hook for (or should they??? Isn't that their job?) but in my estimation the political system of StL is completely to blame for not putting immense pressure on both the cardinals and cordish to facilitate my original point.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4192

olvidarte wrote:
innov8ion wrote:If you want something else, you pay for it. We're in a recession that's heading toward a depression. Let's try to think with some semblance of reason here.


So what were we in when plans for BPV were first announced years ago?



The "you pay for it" line is as tiring to me as the "i'm a taxpayer" line is to others.



We were sold a project and a time line which isn't being delivered on.



Talk about bait and switch, fraud even.
What are you talking about? The DJIA increased approximately 85% from the trough in 2002 to its peak in 2007! I don't know of anyone that would call that a recession. Those were boom times, my man. But times change.



Would you rather be in Kansas City's position and be unable to pay back bonds without restructuring the debt??? There's a consequence for everything...



The thing is, we helped build Busch stadium with promises from the Cardinals to repay the community back with the BPV project. I believe they should still be beholden to meet their commitments. I'd like to hear about how they plan to address this.



What I don't understand completely is this. Were the Cardinals to finance every bit of BPV? I know that Cordish asked the City to contribute, but we were steadfast in opposition.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4193

a case for Imminent Domain


Unintentionally amusing.

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PostMar 18, 2009#4194

well today's news makes it more likley this thread will go to 300 pages and beyond! #-o

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PostMar 18, 2009#4195

What a PR nightmare for the birds and everyone involved. The beloved brand will surely take a hit for this one. Even the 'good ol' boyz' on Stltoday.com agree this idea is rubbish.

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PostMar 19, 2009#4196

innov8ion wrote:
Doug wrote:Are you f***ing KIDDING ME!



Downtown has another parking lot and a softball field?



How podunk is this town!!!!!



What's supposed to be the highest land values and we have basically useless space.
If you want something else, you pay for it. We're in a recession that's heading toward a depression. Let's try to think with some semblance of reason here.


This was supposed to be already in construction. The recession shouldn't have had any factor, especially considering the subsidy issued for both BPV and the Stadium.



The Robert's Brothers are building and we're in a recession. It's not an excuse and really the solution to end the recession would be billionaires and the City actually making this project happen thus using the money that's already on the table, creating jobs, and stimulating the economy.



This is so inexcusable and really makes us look so 3rd tier it's not even funny. I could really only see this more laughable if we had an RV parking lot which actually was one of the proposals for the Archgrounds.



We've demolished a great Stadium, Bush II, for this faux historic piece of sh*t, which has not stimulated downtown economic redevelopment, and we've put up more public money for BPV. Yet none of this came to fruition, we still have seas of parking around the stadium, a suburbanites wet dream, and still this hole, now to be a softball field and parking lot.



Like with Paul McKee we are destroying our built environment for fantasies sold by our alleged "leadership" but they don't deliver. Where is Bottleworks, where is Chouteau's Pond, where is the Riverfront, the Gateway Mall, these are all projects which we have failed to deliver upon or have been done half-ass in typical St. Louis fashion. Yet these projects have all been sold as saving our City, attracting back suburbanites, and making us fiscally sound.



It's a ironic disconnect: we claim to need these projects but we can't deliver meanwhile we let movements which have shown to have proven tract records, like ONSL, languish. We've seen the power of rehabilitation in Soulard and Lafayette Square yet we have State Legislators talking about cutting the State Historic Tax Credit. Why are we not lobbying for expanded funding for these endeavors as they show real measurable result? With these projects we can see our tax dollars at work as they actually break ground and people by into them!



In reality we need to invest more in residential rehab downtown and our neighborhoods. We don't need these mega projects to be a City, especially when they are proposed with PR genius yet never seem to occur. That only damages our civic pride and stimulates animosity against our process of governance which we are ultimately supposed to hold in high regard and want to be engaged in.



The more we are let down the more we hate ourselves and honestly I love St. Louis. I'm tired of feeling bad for our decisions and it's getting really old, fast.

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PostMar 19, 2009#4197

Doug wrote:
innov8ion wrote:
Doug wrote:Are you f***ing KIDDING ME!



Downtown has another parking lot and a softball field?



How podunk is this town!!!!!



What's supposed to be the highest land values and we have basically useless space.
If you want something else, you pay for it. We're in a recession that's heading toward a depression. Let's try to think with some semblance of reason here.


This was supposed to be already in construction. The recession shouldn't have had any factor, especially considering the subsidy issued for both BPV and the Stadium.



The Robert's Brothers are building and we're in a recession. It's not an excuse and really the solution to end the recession would be billionaires and the City actually making this project happen thus using the money that's already on the table, creating jobs, and stimulating the economy.
Could you be any more histrionic and out of touch? For various reasons, at different phases, development was frozen. The Roberts brothers were able to secure financing before the lending market slowed. I believe the Cardinals need to hold up their end of the bargain, but to suggest that this issue exists in a vacuum is a bit silly.

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PostMar 19, 2009#4198

innov8ion wrote:
Doug wrote:
innov8ion wrote: If you want something else, you pay for it. We're in a recession that's heading toward a depression. Let's try to think with some semblance of reason here.


This was supposed to be already in construction. The recession shouldn't have had any factor, especially considering the subsidy issued for both BPV and the Stadium.



The Robert's Brothers are building and we're in a recession. It's not an excuse and really the solution to end the recession would be billionaires and the City actually making this project happen thus using the money that's already on the table, creating jobs, and stimulating the economy.
Could you be any more histrionic and out of touch? For various reasons, at different phases, development was frozen. The Roberts brothers were able to secure financing before the lending market slowed. I believe the Cardinals need to hold up their end of the bargain, but to suggest that this issue exists in a vacuum is a bit silly.


And you miss the point.



"Frozen development" and Downtown St. Louis should be oxymorons.



Like Abraham gave Isaac, we gave Busch II and what did we receive in return?

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PostMar 19, 2009#4199

Doug wrote:Are you f***ing KIDDING ME!



Downtown has another parking lot and a softball field?



How podunk is this town!!!!!



What's supposed to be the highest land values and we have basically useless space.


I'm sure the Cardinals would be receptive to your generous offer to buy the land.

PostMar 19, 2009#4200

olvidarte wrote:This seems to be a case for Imminent Domain...


Is that a fast track version of Eminent Domain? :)

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