urbanSTL

Doug wrote:This was supposed to be already in construction. The recession shouldn't have had any factor, especially considering the subsidy issued for both BPV and the Stadium.



The Robert's Brothers are building and we're in a recession. It's not an excuse and really the solution to end the recession would be billionaires and the City actually making this project happen thus using the money that's already on the table, creating jobs, and stimulating the economy.

I think you've made some valid points.



Yes, as innov8ion noted, there were several delays for a variety of reasons. Ultimately, though, this was the Cardinals' proposal, not Cordish's, not Centene's, and it wasn't the city's idea either. The Cardinals would get the bulk of the credit if Ballpark Village turned out to be the crown jewel of downtown as we were told it would be for almost a decade now. They deserve all of the blame for making a commitment to the community that they may never honor. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if it was ever the owners' intention to honor that so-called commitment to Cardinals fans and the citizens of St. Louis.

Doug wrote:We've demolished a great Stadium, Bush II, for this faux historic piece of sh*t, which has not stimulated downtown economic redevelopment, and we've put up more public money for BPV. Yet none of this came to fruition, we still have seas of parking around the stadium, a suburbanites wet dream, and still this hole, now to be a softball field and parking lot.

I don't think the current Busch Stadium is bad in any way, but I agree to an extent about its economic impact on downtown.



Actually, that's one of the things that irks me about Ballpark Village the most. The Cardinals promised St. Louis a development that would transform downtown, which was actually quite disingenuous on its face when one considers the progress that's been made in the last decade downtown. When the Cardinals made their first (unsuccessful) pitch to the Missouri Legislature in 2002, downtown development was beginning to take shape. By the time the agreement between all parties was finalized in late 2006, downtown development was at a fever pitch. There's no doubt the original plans for Ballpark Village would've strengthened the area's appeal and bridged the gap between the stadium and the rest of downtown nicely, but it wasn't going to be a panacea for a downtown that was progressing rather well all on its own.



So the Cardinals promised us an extensive mixed-use development with multiple highrises, which devolved into a cookie-cutter bar mall, which has now morphed into a softball field and parking lot for the foreseeable future. Several groundbreaking dates came and went. Yes, there were many reasons for the scaled-back plans and false starts. Yes, the economy sucks. Recession, depression, regression. Blah, blah, blah. Ultimately, as I said before, this was the Cardinals' idea, and the insulting betrayal of the community lies squarely on the Cardinals owners' shoulders as far as I'm concerned.



You'd think in the last three years they could've at least built a proper Cardinals museum for Christ's sake. Forget incentives- the owners could dip into their own funds. They sure as hell aren't putting much of their money into the on-field product, which was ostensibly the reason (remember, so a middle-market town could run with the big boys in New York, Boston, etc.) that we needed a new stadium in the first place.



This is where I'll part company with Doug and agree with innov8ion about the role our city's leaders have had in this fiasco. Of course the current situation is disappointing, but I am glad the city resisted several requests by Cordish and the Cardinals to guarantee revenue from Ballpark Village. Could you imagine the mess the city would've been in if we were on the hook for this development like St. Louis Centre, Union Station, or the Marketplace on Manchester? I do regret, however, that the city extended the deadlines at which the Cardinals would be responsible for penalties. Still, I'm disappointed for the city and not with the city, because I believe Mayor Slay and others dealt with the Cardinals owners and Cordish in good faith and got hoodwinked just like those among us (yours truly included) that actually thought the Cardinals might deliver on this quixotic farce.



Moorlander, I wish this news would convince enough Cardinals fans to tell the owners where to shove this rubbish, but we all know that even in the middle of a recession, there will still be at least 2.5 million red-clad people passing through those turnstiles. The owners know this as well, and that's why they can keep selling the snake oil with smiles on their faces.

I like New Busch. It fits in with the city to an extent, and it feels more open and breezy than Busch II did. Supposedly the third base entrance looks like Eads Bridge, and the entrances with the tall, skinny arches like Cupples Station buildings.



I don't like the pit that Ballpark Village has become, but I do like the new park. And it's not like we tore down Fenway to build Busch III. Busch II probably wouldn't be considered a historic jewel like Fenway, Wrigley, or Yankee Stadium.

You could see this whole fiasco coming down Main Street for quite awhile now. Just build some 4-5 story nice looking brick row style residential buildings with ground level retail and be done with it already.

Doug wrote:Come on.



The City does not get any blame?



They ran out the International Bowling Hall of Fame for this project which now isn't happening.

Doug, with all due respect, you've made excellent points on this subject and many others, but I think your tendency to blame the Slay administration for just about everything really undermines your credibility.



I'm sure there are things the city could have done differently. If there wasn't an election just around the corner you might even hear the mayor admit that himself.



However, if we're looking for someone to blame, I still believe it's the Cardinals. This was their idea. Ultimately it was their responsibility to execute their concept. They are to blame for the empty lot and broken promises. They are to blame for the departure of the International Bowling Hall of Fame. (I guess the city was supposed to bend over backwards for the IBHOF also, another 'damned if they do, damned if they don't' situation.)



And the owners will continue laughing all the way to the bank, because St. Louisans would never dare turn on their Cardinals. And why would they, when it's apparently so much easier to blame everyone else involved for what's gone wrong?

Dewitt 3 was on 1380 this morning, here are my notes



- New parking lot to be used for tent city during ASG

- Would have cleaned up BPV lot soon, but original plans called for underground parking, and then didn't want to bring in fill just to turn around and excavate.

- When asked "the plans have changed many times, what can the city expect to see there under the current plan?" Dewitt described the office tower in the outfield with intergrated bleachers, and then an entertainment distric (to be VERY much like P&L district in KC). Dewitt seemed to love P&L when he was there during an American Idol event.

Would have cleaned up BPV lot soon, but original plans called for underground parking, and then didn't want to bring in fill just to turn around and excavate.

Rubbish.



Let me guess- now there will be no underground parking since the Cardinals have demonstrated their unyielding commitment to the citizens of St. Louis and Cardinals Nation by making an extraordinarily generous investment in downtown just by leveling off the crater where Busch Stadium II once stood. Why, those owners couldn't afford the cost of excavation to build underground parking! What, we expect more? How dare we! We as citizens- and Cardinals fans- must be more understanding of the owners' difficult plight, I suppose.

When asked "the plans have changed many times, what can the city expect to see there under the current plan?" Dewitt described the office tower in the outfield with intergrated bleachers, and then an entertainment distric (to be VERY much like P&L district in KC). Dewitt seemed to love P&L when he was there during an American Idol event.

I'll tell you what we can expect to see: A softball field and a parking lot.

^ On the bright side, he said there would be plenty of above ground parking!

Moorlander wrote:an entertainment distric (to be VERY much like P&L district in KC). Dewitt seemed to love P&L when he was there during an American Idol event.

Aw Hay-zoos Creesto.

Why on earth would we want THE EXACT SAME THING AS KC? How original. Anyone worried about the adverse effects BPV (assuming something ever happens) might have on other blocks DT, or do you believe this will complement the ongoing renaissance?

UrbanPioneer wrote:I hope, since there's obviously no chance anything gets built by the all-star game, that the Cardinals at least cover the parking garages with banners of the renderings showing what will (eventually) be built. At least that way, the rest of the country gets some idea of what the area could be.

Who cares what the rest of the country thinks? Besides, banners, slick marketing, etc. just perpetuates the myth that something will get built while the land sits idle for years (oh, that's already happened).



Is imminent domain an option in this case? I mean what's the highest and best use for this land? If the city took away the property of homeowners for the incredible, awesome, much needed Loughborough Commons, couldn't they do the same here?



Or is a softball field and parking lot really the best use of land in the heart of STL's DT. I'm beginning to wonder...

^Oddly enough, that would be considered organic development by most here that is so wished for nowadays.

Here's my take on all of this. First, let me preface this by saying I think BPV will be built, and construction will start within 2 years. There is too much money laying on the table and too much already spent for it not to get built. Stifel and the other 80% pre-leasers will make sure of it. Development is not as easy as people think it is. We less than 3 years out from the completion of Busch Stadium and only about 2.5 years out from the original announcement of what BPV would actually be. That is not that long in the development world. If the bond market was not crap right now, I think construction would be starting soon. Since taking Real Estate Finance last semester and taking a second class this semester, I have a new respect for the guys that put the money end of development together. It is plain and simple not easy. Especially so with a project of this magnitude. I've done pro-formas for a $500 million project for a competition. That was tough enough without even having to know that a bank would be willing to finance it. When you throw in the lending in a market like this, there is a completely valid excuse for delay. The owners of the Cardinal's and Cordish are in business to make money. They are not stupid. They know how much money they have lost by not having the project up and going right now. They may not build BPV to exactly what they want, but it is their land. And no, this is not a case for Eminent Domain. This property is the Cardinal's. There is no reason for the city to cause a sale by force, and a buyer would have to be found anyway. Who's to say anyone else would want to buy it right now or be able to put any development up.



The news yesterday is frankly, really not news at all. The site needs to be partially paved for all of the tents that will be up for the all-star game. Might as well make money off that paving in the interum. It will at least look nicer than the current parking. The rest of the site that is not needed for tents will be made to look nice and at least serve some small use. All in all, I can deal with it.

Do you have any idea how many developments are proposed in Chicago, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Boston, etc. that are never built? A sh!t ton - that's how development works.

I see the point here, but it seems a few of the cities you listed have lots of proposed developments that actually get built as well...I think that's the difference between them and STL.

And no, this is not a case for Eminent Domain. This property is the Cardinal's. There is no reason for the city to cause a sale by force, and a buyer would have to be found anyway

Why? They did it to their own citizens, why not the Cardinals? Why isn't Eminent Domain abuse warranted here? Is the City not an equal opportunity abuser? Or are the costs too much when you're up against an organization with deep pockets?

JMedwick wrote:A fair analysis Matt, though it concerns me that Dewitt is interested in a full repeat of the P&L. One other thought:

Yes, that is my one worry as well. I hope he was just saying that in reference to the street level space.

JMedwick wrote:If the goal is to simply recreate the P&L district in downtown minus the addition of a major HQ relocation (H&R Block relocated from out in the Country Club Plaza area to downtown), then the district may well hurt downtown St. Louis. From the photos I have seen of the P&L, it looks mostly like a combination of 1, 2 and 3 story restaurants and bars plus the museum, arena and HQ anchors.

This is my concern. We don't even have the HQ relocation like KC did.



Why not convince Montgomery Bank to drop their plans to build in Clayton and build their HQ in BPV? While it's not nearly the magnitude of H&R Block, it would certainly be a plus for downtown.