1,364
Veteran MemberVeteran Member
1,364

PostApr 29, 2008#3426

As much as it would be nice for players to reinvest money back into their cities, most don't (as far as I know). A lot of them have their charities they donate to, but I don't think very many get involved in city projects.



It would be nice for them to help their city, but other than paying taxes in their home state (which for some of them is Florida which has no property tax), they don't usually do much for their home cities.

2,386
Life MemberLife Member
2,386

PostApr 29, 2008#3427

^Edmonds anyone?

2,831
Life MemberLife Member
2,831

PostApr 29, 2008#3428


93
New MemberNew Member
93

PostApr 30, 2008#3429

So when does the summer officially end? According to KSDK Bill Dewitt Jr. said ballpark village will start by the end of the summer. So, what’s the over/under on this latest prediction?

145
Junior MemberJunior Member
145

PostApr 30, 2008#3430

I just watched the story on Channel 5. Dewitt said by the end of the summer the construction will start? Really? I am not holding my breath for that.



I heard one fan say turn it into a park. Really? A park? Do we really need another downtown park? I understand that are needed but I feel there is plenty right now.

PostApr 30, 2008#3431

joelkamp wrote:So when does the summer officially end? According to KSDK Bill Dewitt Jr. said ballpark village will start by the end of the summer. So, what’s the over/under on this latest prediction?


I believe December is the end of summer.

5
New MemberNew Member
5

PostApr 30, 2008#3432

Maybe someone should get a recording or transcript and create a huge sign with a countdown.. Put it next to the stadium or on a dedicated website.. I don't know, some way to keep a reminder going for them to actually do what they say.



We need a public trail of missed promises to keep them working hard.

5,631
Life MemberLife Member
5,631

PostApr 30, 2008#3433

joelkamp wrote:So when does the summer officially end? According to KSDK Bill Dewitt Jr. said ballpark village will start by the end of the summer. So, what’s the over/under on this latest prediction?
To be precise, that is not what he said. DeWitt said, "all the necessary work will be completed by the end of summer 2008 in order to get started with actual construction."



He didn't say they would start by the end of summer. Just that they would be ready to start. I think we'll be lucky if they actually start by spring 2009.

8,912
Life MemberLife Member
8,912

PostApr 30, 2008#3434

Watch the KSDK Report Here





Watch New Rendering Video Here

Ballpark Village Still A Pit





By Mike Owens, I-Team Reporter



(KSDK) -- For 18 months, St. Louisans have been watching the hole where the old Busch Stadium used to be, waiting for rebirth.



So far, all they've seen is a mud hole when it rains and a dustbowl when it doesn't. The 12-acre site is to be the home of the Ballpark Village, a development that has changed over the last year and a half, from a condo complex with some offices and shops, to mostly an office complex with shops and restaurants; those changes prompted by the tanking housing market.



One thing that hasn't changed is the city's financial involvement in the project. The city is kicking in $115 million worth of what's called "tax increment financing."



Mayor Francis Slay said that's not actual money, but future money. The developers, the St. Louis Cardinals and the Cordish Company of Baltimore, will build the complex, and any incremental increase in tax revenue won't go to the city but will instead go to help pay for the development.



But baseball fans are getting frustrated, and some are actually worried that St. Louis will look bush league because of the hole when Busch Stadium hosts the 2009 Major League All-Star Game.



However, Bill DeWitt III, the Cardinals' team president, said he's hopeful that visitors won't see a hole in the ground. Instead, they'll see construction underway in the hole in the ground.



DeWitt said all the necessary work will be completed by the end of summer 2008 in order to get started with actual construction. That's good for DeWitt, because under the current proposal, which still hasn't been given final government approval, the team would have to pay the city $3 million a year if the project does not move forward.



The project stumbled in March, when a major tenant, the Centene Corporation of Clayton, backed out of a deal to develop two blocks as their national headquarters. Centene is a health management firm.



The deal collapsed under its own weight, according to those who know what happened. They said that Cordish and Centene could not agree to the basics of a deal, like where to site the buildings and where to put parking.



Now, DeWitt said the project is back to its original footprint, making it easier to get moving.



Barb Geisman, the city's development director, said the city has done all it can to urge the development, and there will be no more public subsidy offered to the Ballpark Village.



Geisman said she's confident the Cardinals and Cordish will get the project underway, satisfying thousands of baseball fans.



The big hole is right outside DeWitt's office window and he said the fact he sees it everyday does put him under a certain amount of pressure. He adds that pressure is prompting him to work harder on the project.

5
New MemberNew Member
5

PostApr 30, 2008#3435

The big hole is right outside DeWitt's office window and he said the fact he sees it everyday does put him under a certain amount of pressure. He adds that pressure is prompting him to work harder on the project.


Good thing that he has something to make him work hard. :roll:

604
Senior MemberSenior Member
604

PostApr 30, 2008#3436

Bill Dewitt's video of the proposed Ballpark Village looks great, but I think it's just a tease. How on earth will they get funding to build all that in the current market? There must be at least 1 million sq. ft. of office space in that video, and as of now they have 150,000 sq. ft. of proposed tenants.



It really makes you wonder just what will end up at the development. I hope they are wise enough to at least build the underlying structures to support the highrises they show in this video if they can't be built day 1. Even better, it would be great if they left some of these inner blocks undeveloped and sold them to private developers to develop with condo/apartments when the economy returns to normal levels.

242
Junior MemberJunior Member
242

PostApr 30, 2008#3437

Maybe I'm a bit slow, but I really don't understand the reluctance to build a condo tower here. Even the most anti-city hoosiers I know say that a condo overlooking the stadium would sell like hotcakes. The national residential market is terrible now, but it seems that this project would have a recession-proof source of demand.

1,099
Expert MemberExpert Member
1,099

PostApr 30, 2008#3438

DeWitt said he's getting used to the water hole in the main hole being called "DeWitt's Pond."
Seems as if there is now an official name for the pond. :lol: :roll:



Some captures from the Dewitt's video of the rendering on KSDK:












5
New MemberNew Member
5

PostApr 30, 2008#3439

DrDrew wrote:Maybe I'm a bit slow, but I really don't understand the reluctance to build a condo tower here. Even the most anti-city hoosiers I know say that a condo overlooking the stadium would sell like hotcakes. The national residential market is terrible now, but it seems that this project would have a recession-proof source of demand.


I would totally agree.. I'd think that a condo tower overlooking the stadium would bring buyers from all over the US. This would really be a unique opportunity. The slow market wouldn't be able to stop interest in this, even at higher $$$. Plus, by the time the thing gets built, we will have probably gone in/out/in/out of market conditions.



Relaxing on your balcony watching the game! Maybe they are worried that it will cut into the ticket sales -- joking - maybe

5,705
Life MemberLife Member
5,705

PostApr 30, 2008#3440

Definitely frustrated and absolutely amazed at the lack of PR (Considering you got a pro baseball team as an owner who is marketing around the clock coupled with a nationwide developer). But not giving up yet. This is the prime of prime locations for development in the region. So I'm at least glad that the DeWitt's are still thinking big. Why not shoot for a million square feet!!! It would be big lit down otherwise. The wait will be worth it for downtown, the city and region as a whole.



I think the silver lining in all this has been Ballpark Lofts, the Cupples warehouses as a whole and possibly the old Dillard's building. DeWitt's throwing up lofts or a residential tower right away might have thrown the market upside down even before the housing downturn. Instead, I believe you could still build out BPV with a mix office and a residential tower even in the downturn. Now its Cordish chance to redeem their worth, not only in developing but bringing home the bacon to get BPV going.

190
Junior MemberJunior Member
190

PostApr 30, 2008#3441

Learned something new today.


some are actually worried that St. Louis will look bush league because of the hole when Busch Stadium hosts the 2009 Major League All-Star Game.


I always thought it was "Busch" league. As in they are more focused on drinking than on playing the chosen sport of that league; or since Busch is supposedly the "lesser" of the AB products (although I think it tastes better), a "Busch league" would be the less prestigious league.



Then I went to Wikipedia:

Bush league is a general term used to describe an action or thing as being amateur, inferior or crude. In a literal sense, it refers to a low quality minor-league in baseball not associated with any of the major league teams. The term originated from the state of minor-league fields that often were ringed with shrubs and bushes.


I thought that was interesting.



As for the village, I sure hope it comes out looking like those renderings. It's a shame they aren't more interested in residential; I bet you could presell every unit in a 15 story tower if it overlooked the ballpark.

6,775
Life MemberLife Member
6,775

PostApr 30, 2008#3442

It looks great, but without significant residential either in BPV or immediately surrounding it, this will be St. Louis Center/Union Station II.



Imagine a cold December night at 8:00. Who will be in those restaurants? No one.

2,386
Life MemberLife Member
2,386

PostApr 30, 2008#3443

^ The residential population of downtown South has been gradually increasing through the Couples Lofts, not to mention that there is supposed to be a sizeable hotel in this development, correct? I'm not saying that there shouldn't be more residential involved (If there is a market in downtown at all, it is here), but I don't know if that is all that fair of an assesment above.



I'm amazed that he said they couldn't reach a deal with Centene based on where to put the tower, and where parking would be located. This seems like an easy fix to me. But hell, maybe I'm just a lot more intelligent than the parties involved. (Now ^ that's bush league, realclear.)

8,912
Life MemberLife Member
8,912

PostApr 30, 2008#3444

That poor man who suggested it become a park with picnic tables and a stocked pond for fishing! WOW!



I guarantee if it came down to a vote, a "nice park with a pond and fountain and walking path" would win in a landslide.

1,067
Expert MemberExpert Member
1,067

PostApr 30, 2008#3445

Totally bogus that there is not a plan for residential. I'm all for filling it with office, but I residential in some form should play a role.



Even if they don't put in residential, I think the key is how the blocks on Clark interact with the stadium. Buildings need to be up to the street, be interactive with stadium, and maximize visibility to the field for the public. Rooftop restaurants, bars, and private party rooms seem like a no brainer (or ones with outdoor portions that face the field). Something that can mimic Sheffield in Wrigleyville would be nice. Accessory scoreboards, banners, tasteful advertisement, something that let's everyone know the buildings were designed to be seen.



I wouldn't mind lower rise buildings along Clark for this purpose with highrise offices behind. The tiered effect would look cool from the field, too. Residential just makes the interaction with the stadium easier as by default there will probably be people watching from windows, decks, balconies, etc. Unless the majority are purchased by corporate types and only lived in intermittently.

8,912
Life MemberLife Member
8,912

PostApr 30, 2008#3446

The lack of residential will be good for the cupples complex, and will create higher demand for residential towers on the SE and SW corners of the ballpark. The elevated interstate there isn't so appealing however.

308
Full MemberFull Member
308

PostApr 30, 2008#3447

Moorlander wrote:That poor man who suggested it become a park with picnic tables and a stocked pond for fishing! WOW!



I guarantee if it came down to a vote, a "nice park with a pond and fountain and walking path" would win in a landslide.


My point. St. Louisans as a whole have developed over time a pessimistic/lack of vision attitude towards their city.

78
New MemberNew Member
78

PostApr 30, 2008#3448

Entertainment AND residential are key for this project. With those two elements this locale could be one of the most vibrant areas in downtown even in the off-season

214
Junior MemberJunior Member
214

PostApr 30, 2008#3449

DrDrew wrote:Even the most anti-city hoosiers I know say that a condo overlooking the stadium would sell like hotcakes.


I haven't looked at the recent proposed designs for the condo portion of BPV, but presumably only the units on the side of the tower that actually faces Busch Stadium would have a view of games in progress - those on the other three sides would just look out at other downtown buildings, so even if the units on the stadium side proved popular, the developer would still be facing an uphill struggle to sell the other 50-75% of the building (depending on how many units there are per floor). I also suspect that, on a Venn diagram, the circle representing people who think it would be cool to have a condo overlooking the ball park and the circle representing people who actually earn enough money to buy such a condo would have a very small area of overlap...

923
Super MemberSuper Member
923

PostApr 30, 2008#3450

bonwich wrote:The City subsidized the stadium because of promises to develop the adjacent land. The public reasonably assumed that said land would be at least in part developed in time for the 2009 All-Star game. Plus the City has fair right to demand upkeep of a property, and the mayor has power of moral suasion to point out that, in return for the tens of millions that the Cardinals got in subsidy for the stadium, they should at least make their vacant lot look nice. (Then again, the Kiel Partners "promised" to reopen the Opera House, and we see how well that's turned out.)


The city stupidly assumed that their "penalties" would be enough incentive to hold the Cardinals to their word. As I've said from day 0, the penalties were less than the cost of development. Why would the cardinals take the risk when they can eat the penalties and be done with it?



They're just going to continue to put out renderings that get people all excited, while secretly they have no intention of developing. They'll pave the lot for parking, wait for the market to swing back up, then sell the land, make a ton of money, and earn far more than the penalties they'd have paid in the sale.



Take the blinders off folks. Since when have sports teams ever been property developers?

Read more posts (1310 remaining)