urbanSTL

^I love it! I think the "development meeting" should devolve into the mud wrestling...just a thought. Now, if we can just get PublicEye to come.

matguy70 wrote:I completely blame Dewitt and the Cardinals organization for this monsterous mess.

I apologize in advance for the length, as I'm weighing in late on this. I just got back into town when I heard that the supposedly false report wasn't false after all, much to my dismay. Still, I think there's plenty of blame to go around for all parties involved:



Cordish: The communication about this project has been abysmal at best. Beyond some generic renderings and a model or two, what have they given us over the last two years since the deal was announced? They've earned a reputation for failing to deliver on their grandiose promises, the plan for Ballpark Village has already been scaled back and delayed multiple times, and they don't want to let other developers (read: Centene) into their precious sandbox. Niiiiiiiice.



Centene: Ironically, the idea of Centene moving to downtown St. Louis is beginning to look a lot like the Cardinals threatening to move the team to Illinois if the public didn't bend over and give them money to build a new stadium (Is anyone else really starting to miss the charm of ol' Busch II yet? I know I am!). Maybe Centene wanted leverage with Clayton to get what they wanted in the first place. Maybe they really wanted to come downtown. Maybe we'll find out, maybe we won't. I hope the corporation stays in the area, but again, I don't hold out much hope based on Greater St. Louis' track record. Who knows...



City of Saint Louis: Hizzoner's Chief of Staff Jeff Rainford called the joining of the Centene proposal with Ballpark Village a shotgun marriage. At least that was well played. And, taking that characterization of this clusterfark into consideration, I guess we shouldn't be surprised by an acrimonious and messy divorce. The city played hardball with the Cardinals and won with a much smaller investment, but they may have jeopardized the whole shebang by bringing Centene into the picture. What, you mean the city didn't have some vacant land or a parking lot they could sacrifice for the Centene cause? Please.



Mayor Slay took a calculated risk by announcing the Centene deal with no signature on the dotted line, and in fairness I'm sure it was in hopes of pressuring all the parties involved to get the ball rolling. Now, Mayor Slay, how would you like the egg on your face- scrambled or overeasy?



The media: Other than Charles Jaco at KTVI, I haven't really seen much critical analysis of what's been going on behind the scenes. I can't say much more about the media, though, because I don't expect much more from them.



The Cardinals: More than anyone, I blame the Cardinals. The billionaire owners spent the first half of the decade convincing fans a new stadium was needed to keep the team competitive long-term. Oh, and as an added bonus, the community would gain a hub of year-round activity and the crown jewel of downtown revitalization. While I was skeptical of the need for a new stadium, I was excited about a clean slate, mixed-use development that would bring life to the area around Busch Stadium and connect with downtown's historic core. What could possibly go wrong?



Apparently, a lot. Like Cordish, the Cardinals haven't exactly been forthcoming about the ongoing effort to make this development a reality. The parties involved have delayed the start of the project SIX times. While Centene may have complicated the process, and Cordish may have proven to be a difficult partner that exacerbated the delays, the buck ultimately stops with the Cardinals since they are the ones that sold this idea to the citizens of St. Louis, St. Louis County, and Missouri, and they have received public assistance from all three aforementioned governments. The Cardinals have traded on their goodwill throughout this process, and through it all have failed to deliver knowing that no matter what they do (whether it's stalling on Ballpark Village or a lack of investment in their team) that three million red-clad people will pass through the turnstiles of Busch Stadium III every summer.

matguy70 wrote:I WILL NOT SUPPORT THE CARDINALS after this circus.

And that makes at least two of us.

If someone else has a plan and the money just let them take over. I am starting to wonder if and when this will ever happen.

I'd be curious to know how much money in legal fees, architect's fees and other expenses Centene spent on the plans for their original Clayton HQ and then the Ballpark Village HQ. Seems like they're just p!ssing money away.

jlblues wrote:^I love it! I think the "development meeting" should devolve into the mud wrestling...just a thought.

A little civil disobedience probably is in order. Three years of mosquito-laden "Crater and Barrel" amounts to one giant f*ckery between the parties of Cordish, the Cardinals, Centene and our city. They all deserve to be mocked by the taxbase that helped build Busch Stadium.



I'm definitely down with the idea of simulating Ballpark Village with cardboard, etc. Does anyone have any "big-boxes" for big-box retail? A wiffle-ball game would be great as well. There should probably be barbeque or something. How can there be no food in a retail/entertainment district?



Talk about catharsis. And if the Cardinals seek to break up the peaceful demonstration via police with the media present, think of all the negative publicity they'd bring upon themselves.



Here's the newly-revised wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Ballpark_Village. If you look closely, every reference to "Ballpark Village" is replaced with "Crater Village!"



Oh, and here are the aldermen's contacts. You may want to email them to let them know what you think about your faith in Cardinal promises: http://stlcin.missouri.org/alderman/WardMap.cfm

It's time to renovate Sportsman's Park on Grand and Dodier and start looking for expansion teams.







It's always been a dream of mine to see neighborhood sports stadiums be reintroduced.

THE SKY IS FALLING...



Get a freaking grip people. Right now this (centene) was all just a tease. Remember how excited everyone was when BPV was announced. It is likely we'll still get "that" built. And if not, then boo hoo. This doesn't mean we're (stl) headed for the dumpster. This is ONE project of hundreds or more happening in this fine city. Now pull up your pants look at the big picture. This is the most prime piece of real in the region and something worthy will get built on it. And if for some reason we're not excited about it, then it will make all those surrounding lots even more prime.



It only vexes me because we have a crater sitting in the heart of DT.

phoaddict wrote:Also, how is Indianapolis and Louisville growing...those cities are SO BORING, especially Indianapolis.

Those two cities have thriving downtowns that we could stand to learn a thing or two from.

Charlie Brennan was calling for landscaping this morning, and a softball field. At least until something starts happening. I say this is the best possible use at the moment considering that BPV might not get built for another few years. Let people picnic on the property before and after games. Have a concert or two, move the BBQ festival there, USE IT. Its just an embarrassment now. I would LOVE to see some kind of satirical protest at Brownstar Village on Opening day too. That is a solid idea. Get that into the media folks. "If you (don't) build it, they will come!!"

.................Centene........................City of St. Louis..................................Cordish.............................

Who's pointing fingers?



City officials and Ballpark Village developer Cordish Co. disagreed on many key details over the project and Centene Corp.'s ill-fated bid to move downtown. Here are some areas of contention:



Cordish — Says it was ready to go with a permit, a contractor and kickoff date.



City — Says no permit was ever issued.



Cordish — Says the city refused to sign until Centene was incorporated into the agreement.



City — Says Cordish kept changing the composition of the Ballpark Village project, making it impossible to finalize a development agreement.



Cordish — Says it spent hundreds of hours trying to close the deal, but Centene kept asking for more concessions.



City — Says Centene wasn't the problem. It negotiated in good faith.



Cordish — No. A development deal could have been arranged for Ballpark Village, and Centene could have been added later.



City — Yes. The Centene deal would have had a profound effect on Ballpark Village.



Sources: David Cordish, chairman of Cordish Co., in a letter sent to the city; and Post-Dispatch interviews with

Barbara Geisman, deputy mayor for development, and Jeff Rainford, Mayor Francis Slay's chief of staff

Source - Post-Dispatch: Centene deal falls apart

So did Centene wait to make their announcement when Slay was in China? On behalf of Slay? Has the media even thought of that question?



A better monument at the crater might be a cross for the burial of Slay's political career. His backing of the DeWitt's to the end might be the one thing that can truly cause him harm on the southside and within political elite.

Moorlander wrote:THE SKY IS FALLING...



Get a freaking grip people. Right now this (centene) was all just a tease. Remember how excited everyone was when BPV was announced. It is likely we'll still get "that" built. And if not, then boo hoo. This doesn't mean we're (stl) headed for the dumpster. This is ONE project of hundreds or more happening in this fine city. Now pull up your pants look at the big picture. This is the most prime piece of real in the region and something worthy will get built on it. And if for some reason we're not excited about it, then it will make all those surrounding lots even more prime.



It only vexes me because we have a crater sitting in the heart of DT.

Well, when BPV was first announced it was a $60 million project. And that is the size of the project to which the Cardinals are committed, nothing more, else they start paying $3 million annually in 2011. So, we will likely get something in that range, but I'm not optimistic that we will see anything more than that in the next 5 years. And, I'm not even sure we'll get that at this point, cuz well, things are getting ugly and fingers are pointing (see P-D article link above), and this whole mess could easily devolve into legal action.



I really think it might be best at this point for the Cardinals to fire Cordish, build their $60 million project with Cardinals' offices and a Hall of Fame and maybe a bar/restaurant or two, and then sell off the rest of the land to developers that know what the hell they are doing.

Moorlander wrote:Right now this (centene) was all just a tease.

And depending on whom you'd rather believe in the "he said, she said" mess that this partnership has become, Centene was a tease because it wanted a better deal in Clayton all along, and/or the city was a tease for jeopardizing the unsigned Ballpark Village agreement on the table by pushing for Centene and therefore completely altering the parameters of the project. So, who exactly is the "tease"? I don't know who's right, and I really couldn't care less as this point, as everyone involved deserves the blame for dropping the ball somewhere along the way at one time or another.

Moorlander wrote:This is the most prime piece of real in the region and something worthy will get built on it.

I don't disagree at all with that, I just don't count on the present parties involved to deliver.

jlblues wrote:I really think it might be best at this point for the Cardinals to fire Cordish, build their $60 million project with Cardinals' offices and a Hall of Fame and maybe a bar/restaurant or two, and then sell off the rest of the land to developers that know what the hell they are doing.

I agree completely. Since this development was their concept from the beginning, I believe the onus is on Cardinals owners to step up and get this thing moving forward one way or another.

^, and ^^



Honestly, after all the oooo and ahhh wore off from the original plans, I've become very anti "super projects." I'd much rather the whole deal fall through, and (what j blues sugg) have the individual blocks developed separately. That is how the city was built in the first place.



It also seems that much of the over reaction is coming from us younger folks on the forum. Relax kids, it'll be ok.



*sorry for the choppyness, I'm posting on my iphone from the pool in FL.

Moorlander wrote:Relax kids, it'll be ok.

This is probably worth repeating.

Moorlander wrote:Honestly, after all the oooo and ahhh wore off from the original plans, I've become very anti "super projects." I'd much rather the whole deal fall through, and (what j blues sugg) have the individual blocks developed separately. That is how the city was built in the first place.

That's precisely my take on this matter now that we know Centene won't be a part of the overall development. I've been leery of super projects for some time now, as some of the most exciting developments in the city have happened one small step at a time. Frankly I'd be happier if the Cardinals said the deal was off, a plan was announced for an office building on Clark Street across from the stadium to house the Cardinals HOF and team offices, and the remaining blocks were put up for sale.



In the meantime, Cordish says it's ready to get back to work on the original deal. That sounds great, but I wonder how much damage has been done to the relationships of the people involved at this point, and if pride and egos can be set aside to get the development moving forward. As silly as that sounds, I feel like there have been many good ideas in St. Louis over the last, uh, four decades or so that have never seen the light of day because people's pride and egos were wounded. Maybe because the sun is shining after yesterday was such a bleak day in more ways than one, but the optimist has resurfaced in me, and I hope something can still be worked out so we'll one day see this as a turning point and a successful major project.



In the meantime, what do we prefer to cover that vast stretch of land? Asphalt, or sod?

^ Sod, because Doug likes greenspace. Or greenbelts. Something like that. If they put sod in, will they keep Pujols Pond? I'd love to see some kayaks there ala San Francisco.

Moorlander wrote:Relax kids, it'll be ok.

The problem is that, regarding large developments in the city of St. Louis, and the whole region for that matter, it seems that that is the best we can ever expect, that it will be ok; not world-class, not beat-a-path-to-our-door awesome, not positive nationwide press generating, not on par with other major cities, not even great, just ok.



Oh well, at least our renderings are cool.



Cripes, I sound like phoaddict!

Moorlander wrote:*sorry for the choppyness, I'm posting on my iphone from the pool in FL.

Piss off.

So what if we combine the idea of a protest with the ideas for landscaping and actually organize a massive volunteer effort to clean up the lot ourselves? It would have a direct positive impact and the media coverage would hopefully shame the Cardinals and Cordish into action. If several hundred people take over the space on opening day and actually start cleaning it up and voicing our shame at how it looks, it could be the start of something.

^ That's probably far more effective. Except it's private property? Heh, we'd probably have to ask the Cardinals for permission to clean up their craphole.

good idea but



- its private property

- there is a fence around it

- plants can't grow in gravel

- landscaping is expensive (would cost hundreds of thousands just to fill, level, and sod).

^ Yes, it's their property. But it's our city. If you get tired of looking at the trash on your neighbor's lawn, you pick it up - even if technically you are trespassing. We're having company over folks, beginning Monday. It's embarrassing. Civil disobedience anyone? Sunday would be the day to do it.