Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

tge-atw · PostMar 26, 2008#31512008-03-26T18:45+00:00

From the statement released by Cardinals and Cordish:

We will now work immediately with the City and State to finalize all public approvals and commence construction of Ballpark Village. The Ballpark Village partnership is in the unique position of having its private financing in place, and we are ready, willing, and able to proceed. Our vision has not changed — Ballpark Village will be a world-class mixed-use project that will positively transform the City of St. Louis.

Ready, willing, and able to proceed. ***** proceed then. Either they are blatantly lying or they will proceed in a manner that reflects their readiness, willingness, and ability to commence construction. In my mind, that manner is not defined by dead silence and inactivity punctuated with re-phrased platitudes and a new time-frame.

innov8ion · PostMar 26, 2008#31522008-03-26T18:51+00:00

phoaddict wrote:How did it come to the point where St. Louis, big good ole St. Louis 4th city in the country, summer olympics world's fair, the eye's of the world on it, chic, bustling, congested, etc...starts to compete with cities like CHARLOTTE, north carolina???

Then you have naysayers saying..."ohhhh you have low self esteem because you care so much about size, yada yada"...and continue this cycle of non-passionate easy going self absorbed because theyre too afraid to stand up for something they believe in conservatives.

What will take stl to get out of that cycle, honestly?

Strategy, perserverance, partnership. To not focus on past failings. Instead understand that what is past is prologue and move forward to continue shaping a new vision. Ignore the negative naysayers or help recruit them in becoming part of the new St. Louis.

phoaddict wrote:We need something drastic, to stir the nest. 1960 - now has been "small steps"...a little here and a little there to make things "better". We need something big (on the scale of the Great Fire of chicago) We need something that will unite all of us into one city, with common goals as a whole community to conquer this pattern of decay and down spiral.

Like a weakened aldermanic structure and a stronger mayoral position? I agree. St. Louis lacks the ability to implement its vision because power is too broadly separated. The current power structure lends to a mediocre St. Louis. Do others agree? How can this be changed?

Additionally, this makes 6 pages in one day for this thread. If BPV will be up by page 300 as many posit, they better hurry up with negotiations!

tb1000 · PostMar 26, 2008#31532008-03-26T19:18+00:00

As taxpayers to The City, what rights/voice do we have with this issue?

This is not something we should stand down on. We are about to embark on the 3rd season of Busch III and have yet to see any progress, rather we have seen one embarassing fiasco on top of another.

IMO, Cordish has too many irons in the fire with other projects and Centene was a mere inconvience to them. Furthermore, when you have a powerful organization like the Cardinals and then a company like Centene with bargaining power, then a slackass developer in Cordish, and for the topping a local goverment I'm sure it was one hell of an ego-fest for all of those involved and nobody wanted to budge on anything but the city. However, I still blame Cordish and say that the taxpayers should stand up and demand that we terminate the development agreement with them, regardless of sunk and termination costs. In the public eye, they are now causing more harm than good and should not be rewarded with a winning lottery ticket like BPV. (let's be honest, that place will be VERY successful so long as it has anything to do with the Cardinals).

Where do I sign the petition to have Cordish removed?

jmedwick · PostMar 26, 2008#31542008-03-26T19:22+00:00

Not really sure what to say. My gut says blame Cordish, but as Matt and others have pointed out the timeline (with respect to the recent Clayton developments) does not make Centene look innocent. It will be very interesting to see who, if anyone, is at fault. The speed, if any, of the development in the coming months will help make clear whether the Cards/ Cordish are dragging their heals. The only reason I find acceptable for further delays is that the potential Centene deal showed the Cardinals the clear demand for office space in downtown St. Louis from users such as law firms and therefore, the Ballpark Village Development Team wants to restructure the deal to allow for more office development.

No matter how you spin this, it sucks and is a big blow to the image of a renaissance for downtown St. Louis. Downtown has improved, there is no doubt. But to the average person, it is appears to simply be another in a long litany of failures for the City.

With the changes in Clayton, I think it is most likely that they will end up with something similar to what was proposed so long ago. What's really sad is that with properties like many lifeless acres of the Gateway Mall, the City could have offered land at little charge to Centene. $1 for a land acquisition downtown would have been a sizable subsidy in its own right and just plain crazy when combined with other deals like TIF, tax abatement, and even Block Grant finds. I hope Slay and Co. are smart enough to put such a deal on the table at this time, even if it means scrapping the worthless "master plan" that was just completed for the Gateway Mall.

goat314 · PostMar 26, 2008#31552008-03-26T19:29+00:00

This has really pissed the people of St. Louis off! Look at all the comments made on the Ballpark Village thread at Stltoday.com

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/talk-o ... /#comments

Guys lets face it this city needs CHANGE! POLITICAL CHANGE! SOCIAL CHANGE! A CHANGE OF PERCEPTION! and I think the people of St. Louis want it both City and County residents. What this region honestly needs is a merger and less politicians and this can be driven by the people if we get together. I was actually surprised how many people want St. Louis City to do well and are demanding change.

magnatron · PostMar 26, 2008#31562008-03-26T19:34+00:00

phoaddict wrote:
What will take stl to get out of that cycle, honestly? Any words? Is it simply restoring historic areas and buildings? I think we have a deep deep rooted problem of pessimism and conservativsm (not politically but opposite of progressive) that needs a drastic historic event to uproot. We need a leader to interrupt broadcast, to speak to the hearts of st. louisans, to uproot these problems....bring st. louisans together to face issues our city faces, county and city. We need PASSION.

To be honest, it's not hard to be pessimistic about local development at this point. Not everyone is an urban philanthropist, and your average suburban Joe has no way of being educated about the city, if he/she never travels to it i.e. the earlier conversation about the media not covering what needs covering.

Two MAJOR things need to happen to turn the pessimism and urban naivety around

1) They (average joe's) need to stop being let down..

2) They need to be proved wrong...

Maybe that means not making any "Major" announcements until things really truly are finalized. But if all (or even most) of the slated projects actually happened as planned, say we got Lumiere AND BPV and Skyhouse and MX AND Kiel Operahouse and the Riverfront and the Lid.... opinions might be a little different.... But people look at that list, and there is one of those things built, some canceled, and the rest in limbo..... no wonder they don't brush off the pessimism. Personally, I maintain optimism because I live, work and play in the city, and I see it's potential and it's progress.... But not everyone can say that.

tb1000 · PostMar 26, 2008#31572008-03-26T19:34+00:00

Found these gems while searching Google news:

Centene Drops Plan for New Headquarters

CNNMoney.com - 1 hour ago

NEW YORK (Associated Press) - Healthcare company Centene Corp. is dropping plans to move its world headquarters from suburban St. Louis to the proposed ...

Centene not coming to Ballpark Village St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Centene denies report that it is pulling out of Ballpark Village St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Talks continue over moving Centene downtown St. Louis Post-Dispatch

jlblues · PostMar 26, 2008#31582008-03-26T19:36+00:00

Statement of Mayor Francis Slay:

I am very disappointed that Centene and the Ballpark Village Partners could not come to an agreement. Meeting the needs, obligations, legal requirements, and goals of both parties was extremely difficult, complicated, and frustrating.

Translation: "You better believe I'm pissed."

I want to thank Michael Neidorff for the opportunity to bring his company to Ballpark Village. He gave the City a chance because he understands how important Downtown is to the future of the region. I also believe Bill DeWitt, Jr. and Bill DeWitt, III tried very hard to work through the many complications that this deal presented.

No mention of Cordish's efforts.

I also want to thank my staff who worked many nights, weekends, and holidays to find a way to forge an agreement between these two parties.

Translation: "It's not the city's fault!"

I still support Ballpark Village. Because of changes in the composition of Ballpark Village proposed by the developer, a new redevelopment agreement will have to be negotiated. The project will only move forward on terms that are fair to the taxpayers.

Translation: "Cordish has come back to the table, hat in hand. Well, F them!"

Statement of Centene

Ballpark Village was unable to accommodate Centene’s plans for our world headquarters which we deeply regret and are disappointed to announce. Since our announcement in September 2007 , we have been working closely with representatives of Ballpark Village to finalize details for this project. Despite the best efforts of everyone involved, we could not bring our plans to fruition. We were committed and excited to move our headquarters downtown, as we recognize that Ballpark Village will help strengthen the region and we wanted to be part of this. We wish the Cardinals and the developers of Ballpark Village nothing but the best in their efforts to complete this important retail and mixed-use development.

Translation: "It's not Centene's fault!"

We are currently resuming the evaluation of other potential options for the location of our corporate headquarters, both in and out of the region. We very much appreciate the commitment that leaders of this community, especially Mayor Francis Slay and his staff, have shown throughout this unusually long and public process. We remain hopeful that we can work together with local leaders to keep our growing company in the St. Louis region, if not downtown.

We will keep you updated as our search progresses.

Translation: "Sooooo...Clayton, what's up, how ya been? Ready to give us a great big TIF now???"

Notice that noone can bring themselves to say the name Cordish.

innov8ion · PostMar 26, 2008#31592008-03-26T19:36+00:00

TB1000 wrote:Found these gems while searching Google news:

Centene Drops Plan for New Headquarters

CNNMoney.com - 1 hour ago

NEW YORK (Associated Press) - Healthcare company Centene Corp. is dropping plans to move its world headquarters from suburban St. Louis to the proposed ...

Centene not coming to Ballpark Village St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Centene denies report that it is pulling out of Ballpark Village St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Talks continue over moving Centene downtown St. Louis Post-Dispatch

From two days ago. That's PR. It wasn't "official" yet.

newstl2020 · PostMar 26, 2008#31602008-03-26T19:42+00:00

Fresh off of spring break south padre '08 and time for the first rant! damn I'm excited!

Ultimately, the many complexities of Centene’s proposed project in Ballpark Village proved insurmountable.

ARE YOU F!^@ING KIDDING ME? Insurmountable huh? WORLD TRADE CENTER REDEVELOPMENT. That MIGHT have bordered on insurmountable had it not been completed BUT THIS??? A perfectly open 6 block plot of land in what is virtually the center of downtown? NO! This is horseshit. Insurmountable is a rediculous statement. How did they build the Sears Tower? John Hancock, Empire State building? A 29 story tower in downtown StL is insurmountable? We must be totally screwed.

the central scrutinizer · PostMar 26, 2008#31612008-03-26T19:46+00:00

innov8ion wrote:
TB1000 wrote:Found these gems while searching Google news:

Centene Drops Plan for New Headquarters

CNNMoney.com - 1 hour ago

NEW YORK (Associated Press) - Healthcare company Centene Corp. is dropping plans to move its world headquarters from suburban St. Louis to the proposed ...

Centene not coming to Ballpark Village St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Centene denies report that it is pulling out of Ballpark Village St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Talks continue over moving Centene downtown St. Louis Post-Dispatch
From two days ago. That's PR. It wasn't "official" yet.

That's what I was trying to tell you!

migueltejada · PostMar 26, 2008#31622008-03-26T19:47+00:00

My hugely long post is coming (unlike cordish...), but before I post it (and it will be worth it, trust me:

Who was it that said BPV would never get built 3 years ago?

That's right - THIS GUY!

And while I don't like to gloat when I rightly predict the failures of the city of St. Louis (oh wait, I do, but that's besides the point) perhaps this whole episode will finally put to death the mindset of "we have to lure company X to downtown - that'll mean we're a success!" It won't and it doesn't. Supporting the growth of small local businesses is, and has ALWAYS BEEN the way to boost a local economy. If a large business want to locate fine - but they should come to us, not us to them begging and whoring. All you get is a one night stand, a scortching case of herpes, and a giant hole in the ground.

And no one feels satisfied.

matt drops the h · PostMar 26, 2008#31632008-03-26T19:49+00:00

Phoaddict--

I appreciate your passion but think your vision is misguided.

These megaprojects are doomed to a sort of "failure" that smaller scale, piecemeal rehabs and infill are not. The latter are not aggrandized, hyped, and overpromoted to where their novelty fades in a couple years. They're less subsidized, and so less accountable to bring brand names and large chains to the table. They speak to an intimate, urban scale in which most of the city was built in the first place. Ballpark Village, if even still built, will need reformatting in two decades or less as the next wave of retail/entertainment "districts" are created.

Can we say that of Lafayette Square, of its park, of its beautiful rehabilitated homes, of its revived commercial district along Park? Probably not.

Plus, the whole project hinged on that amount of residential included anyway. If this component were to be phased out or significantly reduced, the project would be nothing more than Union Station Part II with a street grid and a view of the ballpark.

Good leadership would be selling the image of revitalized neighborhoods and a remarkable recovery of once-written-off parts of the city, not corporate boxes. I will say though, Centene's backing out is a major loss for the city, economically and employment-wise.

innov8ion · PostMar 26, 2008#31642008-03-26T19:52+00:00

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
innov8ion wrote:
From two days ago. That's PR. It wasn't "official" yet.
That's what I was trying to tell you!

I know what you were saying and agreed that the downtown deal was very likely dead. I was at odds with Fox2 reporting standards or lackthereof.

The key is in its requested location as of last night. Did you see it?

debaliviere · PostMar 26, 2008#31652008-03-26T19:53+00:00

JMedwick wrote:What's really sad is that with properties like many lifeless acres of the Gateway Mall, the City could have offered land at little charge to Centene. $1 for a land acquisition downtown would have been a sizable subsidy in its own right and just plain crazy when combined with other deals like TIF, tax abatement, and even Block Grant finds. I hope Slay and Co. are smart enough to put such a deal on the table at this time, even if it means scrapping the worthless "master plan" that was just completed for the Gateway Mall.

AMEN. I'm sure that sculpture garden will be just peachy though.

PostMar 26, 2008#31662008-03-26T20:04+00:00

Matt Drops The H wrote:These megaprojects are doomed to a sort of "failure" that smaller scale, piecemeal rehabs and infill are not.

Totally. This is why I'd like to see a developer step up to the plate with a plan to build new Class A office space somewhere besides Ballpark Village. Imagine if someone would have begun development on a new office building back in 2003-2005, when all of the BPV talk was starting to heat up.

the central scrutinizer · PostMar 26, 2008#31672008-03-26T20:05+00:00

innov8ion wrote:The key is in its requested location as of last night. Did you see it?

Yep. I got it. Took it to Home Depot today. It's a "special" key, that they don't carry.

So now I have to find a locksmith.

So it may take a day or two to find one that is open decent hours. Plus I have a meeting tonight and class tomorrow night, straight from the office. Friday for sure.

jlblues · PostMar 26, 2008#31682008-03-26T20:10+00:00

SShoe wrote:I also think people need to relax. We had a major mixed-use project planned for that site well before Centene showed any interest. At this point, there is no reason that Cordish can't go back to the original phase one development plans they had six months ago (Redevelopment Agreement 1) and effectively start construction tomorrow.

Actually, yes there is. Their ability to obtain financing, and the city to sell bonds, has changed drastically for the worse. Retailers are much more conservative in signing new leases now than they were 1 year ago. And the housing market...no need to say anything there. And, frankly, this whole debacle I'm sure isn't going to instill a whole lot of faith in anyone thinking of financing or investing in this project.

If Cordish had a signed redevelopment agreement, general contractor signed, all the construction documents fairly complete, had letters of intent from retail tenants, financing secured, and the city was ready to sell bonds, the day after Busch II came down, then we could very well be seeing some retail opening up by now, or a few months from now. There is a reason Cordish never signed the redevelopment agreement. They were never satisfied with the deal, and they certainly aren't now.

magnatron · PostMar 26, 2008#31692008-03-26T20:11+00:00

Has anyone ever officially invited the Mayor to join this forum??? Might get some good ideas and pointers by reading from it...

MattnSTL · PostMar 26, 2008#31702008-03-26T20:13+00:00

Richard Callow, aka PublicEye reads and posts. That's as close to the Mayor as we will get, me thinks. Who knows, maybe the Mayor does read. I know some aldermen do.

phoaddict · PostMar 26, 2008#31712008-03-26T20:13+00:00

Magnatron wrote:Has anyone ever officially invited the Mayor to join this forum??? Might get some good ideas and pointers by reading from it...

I was thinking of doing that very thing...

I was also thinking about writing him a speech to read to the people of St. Louis about having passion hope and unity, that he would give on a specified date (much like a state of the union address)... I think the people of greater st. louis need a face, or leader that can actually lead.

jlblues · PostMar 26, 2008#31722008-03-26T20:26+00:00

phoaddict wrote:We need something big (on the scale of the Great Fire of chicago) We need something that will unite all of us into one city, with common goals as a whole community to conquer this pattern of decay and down spiral.

Hmm, what are you proposing exactly? According to the late Ibn Browning, we are still due for an event that might meet your needs.

phoaddict · PostMar 26, 2008#31732008-03-26T20:28+00:00

jlblues wrote:
phoaddict wrote:We need something big (on the scale of the Great Fire of chicago) We need something that will unite all of us into one city, with common goals as a whole community to conquer this pattern of decay and down spiral.
Hmm, what are you proposing exactly? According to the late Ibn Browning, we are still due for an event that might meet your needs.

hmmmmm....

Let's just hope though that the bridge they're going to build (if they even build it) is made to withstand anything high on the Richter scale....

jlblues · PostMar 26, 2008#31742008-03-26T20:29+00:00

innov8ion wrote:Additionally, this makes 6 pages in one day for this thread. If BPV will be up by page 300 as many posit, they better hurry up with negotiations!

I don't think anyone was that optimistic. I believe the current bet is that BPV will have broken ground by page 300.

PostMar 26, 2008#31752008-03-26T20:38+00:00

migueltejada wrote:If a large business want to locate fine - but they should come to us, not us to them begging and whoring. All you get is a one night stand, a scortching case of herpes, and a giant hole in the ground. And no one feels satisfied.

Did your metaphor fall apart or has that actually happened to you? Er, uh, you weren't the one that dug the hole...I hope.

Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

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