Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

metzgda · PostMar 26, 2008#31262008-03-26T16:21+00:00

STLgasm wrote:Can you imagine what other cities must think of St. Louis, much less Centene? First Clayton actively pushed Centene out (only to put the same properties up for sale afterwords!), and when a major employer announces a commitment to move downtown, we can't even come up with a plan to accomodate them (as a guaranteed anchor!)...

This is nothing short of PATHETIC.

I wouldn't worry about other cities - most likely the only other city that will gain word of this story is K.C. and that's because they have a development with Cordish.

I think everyone needs to relax a little regarding Centene. Yes, this is a huge huge blow but I think deep down we've all known for a few weeks this was going to happen. Based on Slay's and Centene's comments I wouldn't rule out downtown still as a possibility. In fact, if they were to build a HQ downtown on a different site that might make downtown out even better than locating in BV. Also, if not downtown it certainly would be easier for them to head back to Clayton. While that would be a blow for downtown, at least STL as a whole would benefit. Plus, there are much worse places than Clayton they could build a HQ (i.e. sprawling campus in St. Charles).

As for BV, Slay mentions it will need to be re-negotiated again. I do feel that BV is largely flawed. My guess is that Cordish won't commit to residential anymore due to the market. If so, we CANNOT allow this development to get built. Best bet would be to make the infrastructure improvements and partition the land off in blocks that could be sold by block to private developers.

Unfortunately it looks like months more of waiting and wondering.

sshoe · PostMar 26, 2008#31272008-03-26T16:40+00:00

I also think people need to relax. We had a major mixed-use project planned for that site well before Centene showed any interest. At this point, there is no reason that Cordish can't go back to the original phase one development plans they had six months ago (Redevelopment Agreement 1) and effectively start construction tomorrow.

I also think people are putting all the blame in the wrong baskets. I don't believe the that City, Cordish, Cardinals, while none should be completelly free of criticism, were the primary problems. I honestly believe that Centene used the BVP deal to leverage a better deal with the City of Clayton. Does nobody else think it happens to be a huge coincidence that Clayton was able to finally purchase the remaining property involved in the initial deal and a week later the BVP deal falls through? Centene initially wanted to build its HQ in Clayton and Clayton wanted them there as much as the City wanted them in BVP. It also made the most economic sense for Centene and perhaps most importantly, Neidroff lives about two blocks away from the Clayton site.

Let's just hope that with Centene out of the way, we can move forward with the original plans for BPV, sooner rather than later.

midcoaststl · PostMar 26, 2008#31282008-03-26T16:46+00:00

The city should get whoever owns the lot behind Point 400 to work a deal there. Smaller lot = taller tower, and it is still right next to the ballpark.

This really sucks but if centene really wants to be downtown, we have plenty of places to build. I know of some land just north of the ed jones dome...

magnatron · PostMar 26, 2008#31292008-03-26T16:51+00:00

phoaddict wrote:Does anyone else think there's a curse that someone chanted on st. louis?

Maybe like a lemp or someone.

- the floods, the development projects, the humidity, mosquitos, etc.

I need a drink

Maybe it was that dam* goat.... Oh wait.... wrong city, wrong team

dweebe · PostMar 26, 2008#31302008-03-26T16:55+00:00

I love this picture.

phoaddict · PostMar 26, 2008#31312008-03-26T17:03+00:00

innov8ion wrote:
phoaddict wrote:Does anyone else think there's a curse that someone chanted on st. louis?

Maybe like a lemp or someone.

- the floods, the development projects, the humidity, mosquitos, etc.

I need a drink

there's a sudden cool calm that falls over me. and i am happy.

innova8ion, youre a dude. cheers.

magnatron · PostMar 26, 2008#31322008-03-26T17:05+00:00

dweebe wrote:I love this picture.

I am totally gonna make a postcard outta that. caption on the back will say "The majestic Saint Louis Arch overlooks the brand new Ball Pit Village"

bonwich · PostMar 26, 2008#31332008-03-26T17:06+00:00

Careful. On the Internet, no one knows you're a dude.

stlgasm · PostMar 26, 2008#31342008-03-26T17:10+00:00

Where has the local media been throughout this whole debacle? Why haven't they turned up the heat as to why BPV so far failed to deliver on the GUARANTEE that St. Louisans were promised? In my opinion, the media has not been doing their job. This is a huge blemish on the city--politically, financially, psychologically, and developmentally. The citizens deserve some real answers instead of the horses**t we've been getting.

publiceye · PostMar 26, 2008#31352008-03-26T17:23+00:00

To complete the set. The "Ballpark Village Partners" statement:

The St. Louis Cardinals and The Cordish Company believe that Centene would have been a great addition to Ballpark Village. We are disappointed that the parties could not come to an agreement, despite months of effort and the best intentions of the City, Centene, and the Ballpark Village team. Ultimately, the many complexities of Centene’s proposed project in Ballpark Village proved insurmountable.

We will now work immediately with the City and State to finalize all public approvals and commence construction of Ballpark Village. The Ballpark Village partnership is in the unique position of having its private financing in place, and we are ready, willing, and able to proceed. Our vision has not changed -- Ballpark Village will be a world-class mixed-use project that will positively transform the City of St. Louis.

the central scrutinizer · PostMar 26, 2008#31362008-03-26T17:27+00:00

I suspect the reasons for the "failure to reach an agreement" will come out soon. I wonder how ugly it will be?

How long until the name calling and finger pointing starts?

magnatron · PostMar 26, 2008#31372008-03-26T17:28+00:00

STLgasm wrote:Where has the local media been throughout this whole debacle? Why haven't they turned up the heat as to why BPV so far failed to deliver on the GUARANTEE that St. Louisans were promised? In my opinion, the media has not been doing their job. This is a huge blemish on the city--politically, financially, psychologically, and developmentally. The citizens deserve some real answers instead of the horses**t we've been getting.

This is a nationwide epidemic... Media doesnt really report the news anymore. They are more fixated on Brittney Spears, or Paris Hilton showing up at South County mall than what is trully important. This is not to say we don't get "real" news.... but there is so much that goes on unreported.....

MattnSTL · PostMar 26, 2008#31382008-03-26T17:34+00:00

STLgasm wrote:Can you imagine what other cities must think of St. Louis, much less Centene? First Clayton actively pushed Centene out (only to put the same properties up for sale afterwords!), and when a major employer announces a commitment to move downtown, we can't even come up with a plan to accomodate them (as a guaranteed anchor!)...

Clayton actually wanted to keep Centene and was actively pursuing eminent domain for Centene. The Missouri Supreme Court (rightly) said the property was not blighted. Then they announced BPV relocation. Cordish, from the way it sounds, screwed up this deal, not the city. Sounds like the city did everything they could. Unfortunately, we didn't hire Cordish, the Cardinals did. We can't fire them, only hope the Cardinals realize what may be going on.

I would nope the city is smart enough to try to get this deal done on other sites downtown. We know there are plenty, even right around the stadium.

Hopefully this also means there are no more delays to BPV and this can get going. We'll see.

southslider · PostMar 26, 2008#31392008-03-26T17:34+00:00

The lot between Pointe 400 (fka Pet or Sverdrup) and Busch III would be a cool site. But the big thing going for the "Gateway Two/Three" blocks in the Mall is that they are already controlled by the City.

MattnSTL · PostMar 26, 2008#31402008-03-26T17:40+00:00

SShoe wrote:I also think people are putting all the blame in the wrong baskets. I don't believe the that City, Cordish, Cardinals, while none should be completelly free of criticism, were the primary problems. I honestly believe that Centene used the BVP deal to leverage a better deal with the City of Clayton. Does nobody else think it happens to be a huge coincidence that Clayton was able to finally purchase the remaining property involved in the initial deal and a week later the BVP deal falls through? Centene initially wanted to build its HQ in Clayton and Clayton wanted them there as much as the City wanted them in BVP. It also made the most economic sense for Centene and perhaps most importantly, Neidroff lives about two blocks away from the Clayton site..

I've thought about that in the past couple of days, and it actually makes a lot of sense. I think we will probably find out whats going on in the next few days.

And somebody brought up that Slay said it would need to be renegotiated, I think that referred to Centene coming causing a renegotiation. They can now go back to the original unmodified agreement and start work.

metzgda · PostMar 26, 2008#31412008-03-26T17:49+00:00

MattnSTL wrote:And somebody brought up that Slay said it would need to be renegotiated, I think that referred to Centene coming causing a renegotiation. They can now go back to the original unmodified agreement and start work.

Unfortunately, it looks like the renegotation is BV.

I still support Ballpark Village. Because of changes in the composition of Ballpark Village proposed by the developer, a new redevelopment agreement will have to be negotiated. The project will only move forward on terms that are fair to the taxpayers.

thewayofthearch · PostMar 26, 2008#31422008-03-26T17:50+00:00

I wonder if they'll actually get cordish to SIGN the new development agreement...

MattnSTL · PostMar 26, 2008#31432008-03-26T17:57+00:00

metzgda wrote:
MattnSTL wrote:And somebody brought up that Slay said it would need to be renegotiated, I think that referred to Centene coming causing a renegotiation. They can now go back to the original unmodified agreement and start work.

Unfortunately, it looks like the renegotation is BV.

I still support Ballpark Village. Because of changes in the composition of Ballpark Village proposed by the developer, a new redevelopment agreement will have to be negotiated. The project will only move forward on terms that are fair to the taxpayers.

Misread that in my rush to read through it. I still think that means just basically going back to the old one, or does Cordish really want to make big changes besides eliminating Centene? From the Statement from Cordish, sounds like they are ready to go with the existing plan. Maybe the Mayor wants to cut incentives, or Cordish could want more. A lot of speculation going on right now. We need some clarification from the parties involved.

goat314 · PostMar 26, 2008#31442008-03-26T18:00+00:00

So how long is it going to before we see cranes? Probably 2012

Like I said before screw projects like this. The city needs to work on things like Historical Preservation, stop letting suburban style commercial spring up within the city limits, and getting more transit, whether it is the North-South line or bringing the streetcars back to key streets, increasing its tax base, developing a relocation team that apparently the suburb of Charlotte has. Then projects like this will be a drop in the bucket and we will be able to pick and choose what kind of developments we want in the city.

innov8ion · PostMar 26, 2008#31452008-03-26T18:06+00:00

Magnatron wrote:
STLgasm wrote:Where has the local media been throughout this whole debacle? Why haven't they turned up the heat as to why BPV so far failed to deliver on the GUARANTEE that St. Louisans were promised? In my opinion, the media has not been doing their job. This is a huge blemish on the city--politically, financially, psychologically, and developmentally. The citizens deserve some real answers instead of the horses**t we've been getting.

This is a nationwide epidemic... Media doesnt really report the news anymore. They are more fixated on Brittney Spears, or Paris Hilton showing up at South County mall than what is trully important. This is not to say we don't get "real" news.... but there is so much that goes on unreported.....

Some would say that the media serves up what the people want. Is the issue in supply? demand? both? Probably.

phoaddict · PostMar 26, 2008#31462008-03-26T18:16+00:00

How did it come to the point where St. Louis, big good ole St. Louis 4th city in the country, summer olympics world's fair, the eye's of the world on it, chic, bustling, congested, etc...starts to compete with cities like CHARLOTTE, north carolina???

Then you have naysayers saying..."ohhhh you have low self esteem because you care so much about size, yada yada"...and continue this cycle of non-passionate easy going self absorbed because theyre too afraid to stand up for something they believe in conservatives.

What will take stl to get out of that cycle, honestly? Any words? Is it simply restoring historic areas and buildings? I think we have a deep deep rooted problem of pessimism and conservativsm (not politically but opposite of progressive) that needs a drastic historic event to uproot. We need a leader to interrupt broadcast, to speak to the hearts of st. louisans, to uproot these problems....bring st. louisans together to face issues our city faces, county and city. We need PASSION.

We need something drastic, to stir the nest. 1960 - now has been "small steps"...a little here and a little there to make things "better". We need something big (on the scale of the Great Fire of chicago) We need something that will unite all of us into one city, with common goals as a whole community to conquer this pattern of decay and down spiral.

Need prove of the stl vibe? Read the threads on stltoday.com related to today's announcement. "of course this would happen" they say..."it's st. louis for god's sake"....

dredger · PostMar 26, 2008#31472008-03-26T18:20+00:00

My question at the moment is where is the Centene/Clayco relationship at? Have they signed any agreements? They both have cash and want to share an equity position based on the initial talks of moving to BPV. Based on that info, they can still make a new Centene HQ in St. Louis happen pretty quickly in two different ways. First, Centene or even Clayco finally pays fair market value. The broker might be working for Clayco. Second, Clayco is a major owner of the Bottle District property (more speculation, but it would give a completely clean plate for Centene to work off. Just not as premium of a space).

stlgasm · PostMar 26, 2008#31482008-03-26T18:21+00:00

phoaddict wrote:How did it come to the point where St. Louis, big good ole St. Louis 4th city in the country, summer olympics world's fair, the eye's of the world on it, chic, bustling, congested, etc...starts to compete with cities like CHARLOTTE, north carolina???

Then you have naysayers saying..."ohhhh you have low self esteem because you care so much about size, yada yada"...and continue this cycle of non-passionate easy going self absorbed because theyre too afraid to stand up for something they believe in conservatives.

What will take stl to get out of that cycle, honestly? Any words? Is it simply restoring historic areas and buildings? I think we have a deep deep rooted problem of pessimism and conservativsm (not politically but opposite of progressive) that needs a drastic historic event to uproot. We need a leader to interrupt broadcast, to speak to the hearts of st. louisans, to uproot these problems....bring st. louisans together to face issues our city faces, county and city.

We need something drastic, to stir the nest. 1960 - now has been "small steps"...a little here and a little there to make things "better". We need something big (on the scale of the Great Fire of chicago) We need something that will unite all of us into one city, with common goals as a whole community to conquer this pattern of decay and down spiral.

AMEN brotha.

moorlander · PostMar 26, 2008#31492008-03-26T18:33+00:00

Mountain, meet mole hill, I honestly don't think this is a big deal.

debaliviere · PostMar 26, 2008#31502008-03-26T18:37+00:00

phoaddict wrote:How did it come to the point where St. Louis, big good ole St. Louis 4th city in the country, summer olympics world's fair, the eye's of the world on it, chic, bustling, congested, etc...starts to compete with cities like CHARLOTTE, north carolina???

What will take stl to get out of that cycle, honestly? Any words? Is it simply restoring historic areas and buildings? I think we have a deep deep rooted problem of pessimism and conservativsm (not politically but opposite of progressive) that needs a drastic historic event to uproot. We need a leader to interrupt broadcast, to speak to the hearts of st. louisans, to uproot these problems....bring st. louisans together to face issues our city faces, county and city.

We need something drastic, to stir the nest. 1960 - now has been "small steps"...a little here and a little there to make things "better". We need something big (on the scale of the Great Fire of chicago) We need something that will unite all of us into one city, with common goals as a whole community to conquer this pattern of decay and down spiral.

I often wonder that myself.

Recent "boom" cities like Charlotte don't have to deal with the fractured government and things like the earnings tax that we have here. They're dealing with development while we're dealing with redevelopment. And all too often, we put our redevelopment efforts in the hands of few individuals/developers (Cordish) or largely ineffective redevelopment corporations (Grand Center Inc., Laclede's Landing).

I would love to see the earnings tax repealed. It would give the naysayers one less excuse.

We don't compete with Charlotte - they're kicking our butts right now.

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