urbanSTL

jlblues wrote:Maybe if they wait until the year 2050, Ballpark Village could have a 10,000 ft tall building with a space elevator. Yeah, they should wait until then so we have "the best project possible".

Don't give 'em any ideas.

STLgasm wrote:What a surprise. When the grand plans were first announced, I predicted that it's a load of bulls##t. We only have to look to history to see the city's track record of half-assed or shelved projects (Gateway Mall, Bottle District, Arch grounds, etc). We are the City of Plans. I'm not holding my breath that any dirt will be moved within 18 months. I wish I could be more optimistic, but there is still A LOT of crap that needs to be worked out. It doesn't help that we have the most bureaucratic local government(s) in the USA.

I hate to be pessimistic (how many times have I said that when this topic surfaced?) but I have very little faith in all parties involved at this point. I realize it's a complicated project, which became even more complex when plans had to be reworked to accommodate Centene's proposed headquarters, but the start date has already been pushed back a half dozen times. The last I heard, it seemed like ground would be broken at some point near or just after the beginning of the 2008 season for the Cardinals. Now we're being told "several months", and of course, the powers that be are being increasingly vague for a reason.



At this point, I'd just be happy to see construction activity by the time the All-Star Game comes to Saint Louis in July 2009.

I hate to be pessimistic (how many times have I said that when this topic surfaced?) but I have very little faith in all parties involved at this point.

While the Cardinals, Cordish, and certainly St. Louis City can't get their act together (I'm particularly pissed to hear that the County and State now have to sign off on a change of plans. That really streamlines things). I do have faith in Centene. They are committed to building a new head-quarters and have been for some time. They are committed to the growth of their company and have a responsibility to shareholders to execute decisions and plans announced by their board. I wouldn't be surprised if ground is broken on a Centene tower long before any coherent village/disrict begins to form.



Hopefully they can push through their plans without getting too mired in the rest of the BPV boondoggle. Because they are profitable, have positive cash flow, and are growing it should be easier for them to get financing in this time of tightening debt markets than a massive 4-5 block real-estate development.

Wabash wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if ground is broken on a Centene tower long before any coherent village/disrict begins to form.

I expect construction of the Centene Tower will proceed as planned. It may take a few months, but I think it's a strong possibility we'll see action on that corner even if nothing else happens at Pujols Pond for the foreseeable future.



I share STLgasm's concern about our city's history of failed and half-assed plans. Of course, I realize how complicated a project of this size and scope is, but the Cardinals, Cordish, and the city have raised expectations every time they've made an announcement (there have been five announcements- or was it six?).



Right or wrong, people expected to see some action on this site much sooner, and without any progress, it's only exacerbated the perception that the Cardinals owners couldn't care less, and that St. Louis leaders just can't get it together despite the ongoing renaissance downtown (which, IMHO, has happened in spite of our government and not because of it). As others have said, I'll just be happy to see some cranes in the air by the 2009 All-Star Game. But I won't hold my breath.

Yes, projects like this are complex and routinely see delays. The concern, however, is that inflation is rising and financing is getting more and more difficult to secure. Thus, every day of a delay makes BV that much more expensive to construct and to finance. So, the cost continues to rise, but, because of inflation, the public contribution is actually shrinking.



All of this means that each and every day of delay right now makes the project that much more difficult and makes it that much more likely that either, a) the project will have to be scaled down significantly to stay at or near the original budget, b) the project will have to be delayed significantly until more favorable financing terms can be secured, c) the Cardinals/Cordish will seek an even larger public contribution to the project (and we all know that would go over like a lead balloon), d) the project will be scrapped altogether, or, possibly, some combination of a, b, and c.



Thus, a couple month delay right now could easily turn into a couple year delay while they wait out the market downturn and the financing market jitters. Unless there is a sudden, surprising upturn in the economy, I fear we may already be past that point.

"We will open as much as possible. It's tough to say that we will hit that day exactly to have a significant portion of retail open," Martin said. "Our first concern is to have the best project possible."

What a crock of sh*t. Noooo, your first concern is to minimize your risk and get the greatest return on your investment, whether that be the original proposal for BV, or a significantly scaled-down investment. Don't patronize us by pretending it has anything to do with the quality of the project.



Anyone else notice that the residential component dropped 10% somewhere along the way to 225 units?

The comments on STLToday are painful to read, as usual.

Five years after Ballpark Village is finally completed, the Cardinals will be looking to build a new stadium somewhere else.

jlblues wrote:Yes, projects like this are complex and routinely see delays. The concern, however, is that inflation is rising and financing is getting more and more difficult to secure. Thus, every day of a delay makes BV that much more expensive to construct and to finance. So, the cost continues to rise, but, because of inflation, the public contribution is actually shrinking.



All of this means that each and every day of delay right now makes the project that much more difficult and makes it that much more likely that either, a) the project will have to be scaled down significantly to stay at or near the original budget, b) the project will have to be delayed significantly until more favorable financing terms can be secured, c) the Cardinals/Cordish will seek an even larger public contribution to the project (and we all know that would go over like a lead balloon), d) the project will be scrapped altogether, or, possibly, some combination of a, b, and c.



Thus, a couple month delay right now could easily turn into a couple year delay while they wait out the market downturn and the financing market jitters. Unless there is a sudden, surprising upturn in the economy, I fear we may already be past that point.

Excellent analysis- you've raised legitimate concerns that are apparently overlooked amid the commentary from both the homers and the naysayers. Turn those statements into questions, and these are the things the media should be asking the city, Cardinals, and Cordish.



Like you, I also noticed the 10% reduction in residential units to which the developers are obligated to build, and I find the comments about the commitment to building the highest quality project possible rather patronizing as well.



BTW, the article states construction could begin "within 18 months" after the construction bonds are offered to the public. Well, last I heard, the earliest that could happen is April, so there's a real possibility that Pujols Pond and/or Lake Dewitt will look just as inviting in July 2009 as it does today. So why am I supposed to have faith in the powers-that-be, or believe that they're simply trying to ensure the best project possible? Absolute rubbish.



There are simply too many variables that will only compound as the timetable for this project stretches further into the future. Are the Cardinals willing to shoulder the extra financial burden, since financing will be harder to come by, costs will rise, and asking the public is an option that's dead on arrival? Or will they simply scale down the project to the point where it's no longer worth doing? By the time construction starts, I'm not sure there's going to be a more attractive option.



Does anyone else wish the Cardinals would've simply backed out of the agreement, sucked up the fines, and sold the property to private developers? Granted, new developers would want their own public incentives given the amount of work to be done at the site before construction could begin. However, for the lack of better words, I just get the sense that this complicated process didn't need to be so complicated.

The first development agreements were signed in 2002. It is now 2008 and they are still pushing things back. It wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have a gigantic gaping wound in the most public "face" of the city. Its like a surgeon started giving StL (The Milf of the Midwest) a facelift, chopped everything up, and then walked away without fixing it. When asked when he plans on putting it right, he just wrings his hands and explains that "things are complicated." ...........................cricket......................cricket....................cricket..........

NO sh*t THEY'RE ***** COMPLICATED!!!!!!!!!!!. You do this for a living!!!!!

That is why we hired you in the ***** first place!!!!!!!! Its not like we put my neighbor's one-eyed cat and the simple kid who retrieves carts from the Schnucks parking lot in charge. damn. Do your jobs people. Six years later and they are still blowing smoke. Its a joke.

"We will open as much as possible. It's tough to say that we will hit that day exactly to have a significant portion of retail open," Martin said. "Our first concern is to have the best project possible."

After thinking about this a little more and reading between the lines, I believe this is better translated thusly;

"Something may or may not be open for the All-Star Game, but I certainly have no desire to commit to anything publicly, because as far as I am concerned, that anything will be open in 2009 is a total crapshoot, but I have to make it sound positive," Martin said. "In current market conditions, we cannot build anything even remotely resembling the renderings and models we have been displaying for the last three years. We will try to wring some more money out of the locals, but, failing that, we will build the best project possible which could very well be a strip mall attached to Centene's shiny new tower amid a sea of parking. Or, we might just sit on it for a couple years until market conditions improve, hell, we might even walk away from the thing, but I'm just not sure at this point. I will, however, point fingers while glibly making more promises that I have no idea whether or not I can keep."

The original agreement was signed in 2002, but that was well before even the final ballpark deal was finished in late 2003. That deal also didn't have any particulars, it was just the spend so much money or you have to pay fines starting in 2011 agreement. This particular proposal was not even unveiled until October 2006, coming up on only 1.5 years. All the original financing deals weren't wrapped up until August. So while the construction start dates may have been very bullish, they really aren't that far behind for a project of this size and scope. Then you have to consider Centene coming in and completely changing basically everything. I've seen projects much smaller than this take just as long.



Am I disappointed that construction still has not started? Absolutely. Am I mad about it, especially since I don't know the details, but know enough about the process? Absolutely not.

FYI, the last time I checked, these are the results (so far) of an STLtoday.com poll in which participants were asked when they think Ballpark Village will be completed:



2014: 15%



2017: 9%



2020: 5%



2025: 4%



Never: 67%

people are idiots

TheWayoftheArch wrote:Thats funny, I had no idea TG hired the Cardinals and Cordish to build this thing.



Who are the royal "We" that you speak of? You and your investment partners?



If you want to throw in a 100+ mil so "we" don't have to go through the bond sale processes that would probably speed things up. In the meantime go make a fort with your couch cushions while the biggest thing in St. Louis development in a long time runs its due course.

Its TG"E" Red Herring, I mean Way of the Arch. "We" refers to the City of St. Louis that is being jerked around. "WE" look bad because of this (lack of) project. "We" suffer the highs and lows of expectation and disappointment, and "We" have the right to be irritated when somebody tears a gaping whole in our city and then fills it with interminable speculation rather than a promised product. Although your request for money is always the quickest way to shut somebody up, I think in this case a gift of $100 million from me would just get sucked into the abyss of Pujols' Pond and the St. Louis Brownstar Village would still sit there with clouds of excuses and equivocations swarming around it like the mosquitoes that it currently breeds so effectively. With regard to my cushion fort: I was planning on building a really big one that everyone thought was great, but then I changed the plan, and downsized a little bit, But then one of my friends came over and said he wanted to have a big tower in the fort so I had to start planning all over again, and it all just got so complicated that I just decided to dig a hole and fill it with mud and trash.

Has one single LOI been signed for this project? Ever? I would say no because, if it were somebody big, I'm quite sure it would have been trumpeted all over the local media. Even if the developers chose not to do that for some reason, these things still have a way of getting out, and I haven't heard a single rumor about any big national chain, just a few small locals. As I recall, Pace Properties was exclaiming to the whole world that Maggiano's and Crate & Barrel were to be part of Phase I of The Boulevard at least a year before construction started. If there are no LOIs, then we are still a loooong way from the start of construction.



Site prep, sewer and utility work, construction of underground parking (if this is still their intention), and foundation work on this project will take at least a year from the day they break ground unless they work double shifts. Since groundbreaking is realistically a minimum of 6 months away, that puts us at the end of July '09 before any above-grade construction could even start (sorry, no tower cranes). Sure, they could accelerate some portion of the project such as the Cardinals Museum and some retail, but what would be the point in that, since it will be surrounded by a muddy construction site and there won't be any on-site parking? Therefore, it is completely disingenuous at this point for them to be suggesting that anything will be open, or that BV construction will be something of which to be proud, for the All-Star Game.

TGE-ATW wrote:With regard to my cushion fort: I was planning on building a really big one that everyone thought was great, but then I changed the plan, and downsized a little bit, But then one of my friends came over and said he wanted to have a big tower in the fort so I had to start planning all over again, and it all just got so complicated that I just decided to dig a hole and fill it with mud and trash.

Well played.

jlblues wrote:Site prep, sewer and utility work, construction of underground parking (if this is still their intention), and foundation work on this project will take at least a year from the day they break ground unless they work double shifts. Since groundbreaking is realistically a minimum of 6 months away, that puts us at the end of July '09 before any above-grade construction could even start (sorry, no tower cranes). Sure, they could accelerate some portion of the project such as the Cardinals Museum and some retail, but what would be the point in that, since it will be surrounded by a muddy construction site and there won't be any on-site parking? Therefore, it is completely disingenuous at this point for them to be suggesting that anything will be open, or that BV construction will be something of which to be proud, for the All-Star Game.

I would disagree with you about no cranes. I think your construction schedule is rather long with an estimate of breaking ground in 6 months. Tower cranes easily could be up, but there will be cranes in the skyline even if it is only below grade work. Whether they be crawler, mobile or tower, something will have to be used to construct the underground parking. I've said all along that I would rather have cranes up than a completed project. And the Centene tower should be rising if nothing else.

RBB wrote:

DeBaliviere wrote:This site has a virtual tour that I hadn't seen before. The video cuts out at one point, but comes back. The views from the residential tower look unbelievable:



Link

And a new logo, too:







-RBB

I'm glad progress is being made on this project. Seems like a lot of behind-the-scenes business is still taking place. I also like Slay's position on the matter. It is a large project so it is going to take a while for all the pieces of the puzzle to come together.

jlblues wrote:Has one single LOI been signed for this project? Ever? I would say no because, if it were somebody big, I'm quite sure it would have been trumpeted all over the local media. Even if the developers chose not to do that for some reason, these things still have a way of getting out, and I haven't heard a single rumor about any big national chain, just a few small locals. As I recall, Pace Properties was exclaiming to the whole world that Maggiano's and Crate & Barrel were to be part of Phase I of The Boulevard at least a year before construction started. If there are no LOIs, then we are still a loooong way from the start of construction.

I thought I read in the Business Journal awhile back that A-B had agreed to put some kind of store in, with a Clydesdale stable and shuttle rides to the brewery.



I don't know if that's what you were asking about, but it's the only company I remember seeing as having committed to the project.