innov8ion wrote:I'm calm, but baseball has lost its integrity. This ain't good for the Cardinals and St. Louis.
Wow! nothing close to my take on the subject. You are in the minority with your opinions. This is bad for st. louis or the cardinals.
Not sure what you mean exactly. I realize this may be considered a nuance or not a big deal to many, but it's a sign of problems.
There are a lot of ballplayers worth respecting, but a good many cheated to get on top or to even stay in the league. Is that how you build a foundation? Is that how you run a business? By cheating or looking the other way?
And now Ballpark Village will spring from the windfall that steroids helped create. You know, I hope it does turn out to be a success for St. Louis' sake. But it's just a bit dirty, ya know?
^ I see your point, but it's really a stretch. The steroids issue is going to have a negative affect on baseball, maybe fewer people in the seat, less merchandise sales, etc., but "baseball" is very healthy and Ballpark Village has less to do with baseball than its name would allude to.
Ooh dang, did steroids (IE McGwire's home run run) save baseball entirely and spark the discussions and help the marketability that eventually became the New Ballpark to begin with? Now that's a stretch, but my rubber band didn't break.
STLgasm wrote:When is something going to happen already? We've waited two years and still NOTHING.
Eh, management resources are constrained while they look for steroids that won't be detected and stock up on clubhouse vodka from Dirt Cheap. I don't see why LaRussa is still coaching. He earned a DUI in spring training, setting the tone for one of his players to off himself a month later while DUI. Additionally, the Mitchell steroid report was a joke. He's a baseball-insider, Director of the Red Sox and friend of Bill Selig. MLB is starting to sicken me. The Ballpark Village swamp is diseased just like the rest of MLB is.
LaRussa is still coaching because he wins championships. Whom would you rather have? Hancock died because he was not paying attention to the road because he was texting or talking on the phone.
It's a joke that Congress is trying to set the rules of baseball. If baseball wants to allow players to use performance enhancers, that is their right and not the business of government.
Little Egyptian wrote:Did people forget we are talking about Centene? Its not like we are talking about SC Johnson Wax, or Sears or heck even a local bank. Centene needs a box. They deal with large government contracts, not consumers. They don't need to make a statement.
Maybe in a few years. Now, I am just happy with the addition to the skyline.
"I used to think it didn't matter what kind of deoderant I used. *DUMB*."
Don't know if this has been posted before, but the Cordish website now has a rendering video virtual tour of Ballpark Village. Also, I noticed the first picture of the gallery has a Rawlings Restaurant listed on the awning. Perhaps the folks at Rawlings decided to move down the street to BPV from the Bottle District?
midcountyguy wrote:Don't know if this has been posted before, but the Cordish website now has a rendering video virtual tour of Ballpark Village. Also, I noticed the first picture of the gallery has a Rawlings Restaurant listed on the awning. Perhaps the folks at Rawlings decided to move down the street to BPV from the Bottle District?
Perhaps they can hold the ground breaking in conjunction with the All Star game, wait much longer and I'm afraid that might be a reality. Cordish recently announced they were building a Hard Rock Hotel at the Kansas Speedway project, I wish they had the same type of momentum in St. Louis as Kansas City appears to have.
so centene may not move downtown after all, WOW this could be a disaster. Lets pray its alright in the end. I hope we dont end up with some sh*tty product though.
If Centene doesn't move downtown, it would be a major PR disaster for ... well, pretty much everyone involved, including Centene. I really doubt that will happen.
I understand that the city wants to get the best deal possible, but at this point everyone has come to terms with the public financing of BPV. So, get it done already. Stop haggling over terms and get some construction cranes out there. At this point, the best thing that everyone involved can do is just get started. If Cordish and the Cards want a little better deal at the 11th hour, just give it to them. Let's get it going already, other projects are waiting on this thing.
Little Egyptian wrote:If Centene doesn't move downtown, it would be a major PR disaster for ... well, pretty much everyone involved, including Centene. I really doubt that will happen.
I understand that the city wants to get the best deal possible, but at this point everyone has come to terms with the public financing of BPV. So, get it done already. Stop haggling over terms and get some construction cranes out there. At this point, the best thing that everyone involved can do is just get started. If Cordish and the Cards want a little better deal at the 11th hour, just give it to them. Let's get it going already, other projects are waiting on this thing.
I agree Little Egyptian if this turns out to be a quality project it could create a domino effect. With other projects waiting to ride off the success of Ballpark Village, I would hope they would do something soon. IMHO there is noway Ballpark Village can fail, unless they put a horrible project out there because St. Louis is such a baseball town even the most hardcore suburbanite will come to see this project.
midcountyguy wrote:Don't know if this has been posted before, but the Cordish website now has a rendering video virtual tour of Ballpark Village. Also, I noticed the first picture of the gallery has a Rawlings Restaurant listed on the awning. Perhaps the folks at Rawlings decided to move down the street to BPV from the Bottle District?
The rendering with the Rawlings awning has been there for a longgg time. The TBD never popped it's top. It's still very early to speculate on initial restaurants and stores.
As far as Centene goes, I would relax. I'm sure they will be part of BPV, but I sure as heck wouldn't be overly deterred if they were not. If it's meant to happen, it will. If not, BPV can begin with a phased approach and we can bring another company in.
Little Egyptian wrote:If Centene doesn't move downtown, it would be a major PR disaster for ... well, pretty much everyone involved, including Centene. I really doubt that will happen.
I understand that the city wants to get the best deal possible, but at this point everyone has come to terms with the public financing of BPV. So, get it done already. Stop haggling over terms and get some construction cranes out there. At this point, the best thing that everyone involved can do is just get started. If Cordish and the Cards want a little better deal at the 11th hour, just give it to them. Let's get it going already, other projects are waiting on this thing.
Yep- I agree with you. And after watching Charles Jaco's report on KTVI, my frustration with all parties involved is growing.
So let me get this straight...the powers that be (Cardinals? Cordish? St. Louis? All the above?) are throwing out the April 2008 date after they've been wrong FIVE times? It's going to take the city until April to get the bonds in order when they've literally had months to do so already? The Centene announcement was made, which has delayed the progress of the entire project even though nothing has been signed and there's no guarantee they'll move downtown? WT_?
I understand the countless variables that come with a project of this size and scope, but I couldn't possibly be any more frustrated!
This is retarded. If anyone knows anything about Museum Plaza in Louisville, it makes BPV look like a complete farce. They approved and moved on various bonds in under (Don't quote this, just from memory) 2 months. That project is one building, but the overall cost and amount of bonds is extremely close to Centene. LOUISVILLE. You are telling me StL can't get this in order?
Fox2 has a knack for bad reporting, but it's hard to not get riled up by stuff like this.
I wouldn't worry as much about the Centene financing issue. They have only been working on the new project for a small amount of time, and it's not uncommon for financing to ink at the last minute, as construction usually commences asap after financing is in place. The bond issue, on the other hand, does concern me.
I don't think we actually learned much new out of that. We knew that construction would not start till the spring and that the financing was a mess because all of the changes. I don't have any particular problem with that because I have learned over the years how this stuff really happens. It's not all neat and clean,unfortunately. I don't like the delays, but I'm fine with it as long as the plans are not scaled back. Patience can be good, as long as it is not too long. Just remember, they are not making any money on this land while it is sitting vacant. I really do think Cordish wants to get this going as soon as possible, but they are not stupid. They want financing to be complete, just in case.
What I do find a little frustrating is the whole Centene deal. We were fed the line that it was all a done deal and the only thing to be worked out was exactly how all of it was going to happen. I guess we should have taken the hint from the New Markets Tax Credits not being in place, but I don't have time for analysis right now. Now, I'm not thinking that Centene will pull out, but it leaves open a big possibility. If for some reason the financing does not work out, they could easily pull out. They haven't signed anything besides the most basic of documents.
I just hope outside spectators don't get the idea that BPV is a giant farce and will never happen. I'm sure it looks like that to plenty of people that didn't think that from the start. And yes folks, this is a great example of development not being anywhere near as easy as it looks to outsiders.
newstl2020 wrote:Fox2 has a knack for bad reporting, but it's hard to not get riled up by stuff like this.
I agree on both accounts.
It's hard not to get riled up. And while KTVI and its parent company aren't exactly known for responsible reporting, I do believe Charles Jaco is an exception to that rule. IMHO he's one of the few real journalists at that farce of a station (remember the false report about Pujols and steroids, anyone?), and he's been pretty fair with his coverage of Ballpark Village news.
I wouldn't worry as much about the Centene financing issue. They have only been working on the new project for a small amount of time, and it's not uncommon for financing to ink at the last minute, as construction usually commences asap after financing is in place. The bond issue, on the other hand, does concern me.
I'm not as concerned about Centene securing financing as I am frustrated with the city for announcing Centene's decision to move downtown and giving the public the impression it's a done deal. It all feels a bit premature, and if you believe what was said in Jaco's report, it sounds like Centene's intent to relocate to Ballpark Village is what's holding up the rest of the project. I still don't understand why it's going to take the city four months to get the bonds in place, or why the Cardinals and Cordish can't take a look at the timeline and pony up a few dollars to commence construction with the All-Star Game of 2009 in mind, but then I'm no expert on major developments either. (I just wonder if there are actually any experts on the case.)
ThreeOneFour wrote:
I'm not as concerned about Centene securing financing as I am frustrated with the city for announcing Centene's decision to move downtown and giving the public the impression it's a done deal. It all feels a bit premature, and if you believe what was said in Jaco's report, it sounds like Centene's intent to relocate to Ballpark Village is what's holding up the rest of the project. I still don't understand why it's going to take the city four months to get the bonds in place, or why the Cardinals and Cordish can't take a look at the timeline and pony up a few dollars to commence construction with the All-Star Game of 2009 in mind, but then I'm no expert on major developments either. (I just wonder if there are actually any experts on the case.)
Deffinitely agree here. Love Slay, and I don't think this will fall apart, but if it starts to he had better fix it, as he took the opportunity of this announcement to posterize himself in every way possible. (The preceeding line is all well and good, but it HAS to happen if you do that.)
And COME ON CARDS! If you won't spend money on your payroll, at least put it into BPV.
Everyone relax, relax. It will happen. This project became even more complex once Centene announced they are moving. Centene will not back out now unless the sky falls in. They've been wanting to start construction for over a year now (including Clayton) - they won't start from scratch again.
It's tough to compare this project to a single-building. This project encompasses multiple blocks with retail, residential, office, and hotel components. This deal doesn't work without public incentives, tax credits, multiple law firms, multiple private investors (Cardinals and Centene), and an out of town developer in Cordish.
It sucks waiting, and it's frustrating. However, I have no problem waiting another 6 months considering the project has added 700,000 sq. ft. of Class A office space, with the potential to eclipse 1 million sq. ft. Additionally, the project now requires a residential component - something that was axed some time ago due to the housing market.
The Business Journal is reporting that the bond sale is expected to take place in April, with shovels in the ground shortly ahead of the sale. Centene and other changes in the scope of BPV caused everyone to go back to the drawing board, which is the cause of the delay.
DeBaliviere wrote:The Business Journal is reporting that the bond sale is expected to take place in April, with shovels in the ground shortly ahead of the sale. Centene and other changes in the scope of BPV caused everyone to go back to the drawing board, which is the cause of the delay.
Makes total sense. I don't understand why everyone thinks the sky is falling!?!?
^ I don't see where anyone thinks the sky is falling. I'm just frustrated with the glacial pace of progress and the countless delays. And I still don't understand why it's going to take four months to get the bonds ready, or why the Cardinals must wait for the bonds to be issued to begin construction. If everything has been rewritten to accommodate Centene already, what's the holdup? Why can't bonds be issued sooner for the project minus the land where Centene's new headquarters will rise?
I believe the project will get done, but I don't see how anyone can blame others for being skeptical or frustrated.
It's tough to compare this project to a single-building.
Not really...Museum Plaza in Louisville is a ~470 million dollar building, which received ~130 million in TIF and Bond sales to support the actual realization of that project. The final component, 40 million in bonds for structural improvements to the area around the site, got pulled together and issed within a period of 2 months. That makes this project seem like a bit of a joke in comparisson.
Like 314 said, I'm not worried the project isn't going to happen, that would be a little paranoid. Centene will be there, and BPV will be built out. The project just has me concerned that our elected officials have been bordering on incompetent (it seems, I know it's much more difficult than it appears) on this one.
