urbanSTL

I worry that the condo units (thank God a portion of the residential has already been committed as part of the project) will be bought by corporate bigwigs for use of private parties as a substitute to boxes and will be used only for game time.

I understand that these units won't provide much to the vitality of the streetscape in non gamedays but Cordish has to be counting on these as a vital segment of their target market. Remember they will still be tax paying units and could very possibly be used for meetings, parties, and corportate housing durring the off season. I don't see this as a bad thing at all, it's not like every unit will lie under this scenario. People will want to live here full time.

My suggestion is this: go back to the drawing board. See how feasible putting ALL parking that touches Busch Stadium undergound or in one or two new garages that are more attractively designed and include retail on the first floor. That means that Busch East and West get demo'd--immediately! These sites should be given to new mixed-use development--essentially an extension of the current BPV, and should include more residential than has been discussed.

This would be a logistical nightmare. Where would everyone park while these are being torn down and rebuilt. I agree they are ugly and dead but I'm pretty sure the east garage provides parking for the drury, equitable, and glaxo kline buildings etc.

Also, the City/Busch Stadium owners/Cardinals/Jim Cloar should convince Centene to hold a design charette/design competition, with the winning design to be constructed with an emphasis on the base's relation to the street, as well as including streetscape improvements to the barren stretch of Walnut.

This is a great idea.

I will make a site plan later.

I look forward to viewing your ideas.

bpe235 wrote:as I stated earlier in the thread, I would actually prefer BPV not be completed by the all star game. The areas under construction will still give the impression of progress to the national viewers yet the the revenue from all the patrons would be spread around to the many local (independent) bars, eateries, and shops instead of to Cordish and the BPV chains.

Thoughts?

I've said essentially the same thing as well. As long as it is at l;east well under construction, the TV cameras will show a city one the move. Tower cranes in the background can almost be better than the actual finished product.

MattnSTL wrote:Cranes in the background can almost be better than the actual finished product.

Agreed.

As with the rest of this thread, it depends upon your perspective.

innov8ion wrote:

MattnSTL wrote:Cranes in the background can almost be better than the actual finished product.

Agreed.

We already have those in the little pond.

bonwich wrote:As with the rest of this thread, it depends upon your perspective.

Thank you for posting a "Safe for Work" picture of Mr. Crane.

^ Luckily, my AutoFocus was broken.

bpe235 wrote:

I worry that the condo units (thank God a portion of the residential has already been committed as part of the project) will be bought by corporate bigwigs for use of private parties as a substitute to boxes and will be used only for game time.

I understand that these units won't provide much to the vitality of the streetscape in non gamedays but Cordish has to be counting on these as a vital segment of their target market. Remember they will still be tax paying units and could very possibly be used for meetings, parties, and corportate housing durring the off season. I don't see this as a bad thing at all, it's not like every unit will lie under this scenario. People will want to live here full time.

Who cares if corporate bigwigs buy them or not? They will be so outrageously expensive that only corporate bigwigs can afford them, anyway. Even if prices start out "reasonable", market forces will drive them up to $500k - $1m. I don't expect any $250k units.

I'm not an economics expert of the city of St. Louis, but I'm willing to be my lower body on the fact that there are PLENTY of people in the metro area who can afford 500-1 mil. dollar units. Why would only corporate big wigs be able to afford those? Now if you would have said 4-8 mil I would have agreed, but you low-balled that horribly.

newstl2020 wrote:I'm not an economics expert of the city of St. Louis, but I'm willing to be my lower body on the fact that there are PLENTY of people in the metro area who can afford 500-1 mil. dollar units. Why would only corporate big wigs be able to afford those? Now if you would have said 4-8 mil I would have agreed, but you low-balled that horribly.

Thank you! I was thinking the same thing. My spouse & I are certainly not "corporate bigwigs" (teacher and sales rep) with a combined income around 120,000 & we're looking in the 500-700,000 range. And that's a comfortable range.

dina wrote:Thank you! I was thinking the same thing. My spouse & I are certainly not "corporate bigwigs" (teacher and sales rep) with a combined income around 120,000 & we're looking in the 500-700,000 range. And that's a comfortable range.

Seriously??

My concern with the corporate big wigs had less to do with income diversity (which I also think is important) than it did with the development's sustainability in the future and vitality on non-game days.



If 20 percent of the units (or more--that number is purely a guess) were bought by corporate entities and used only for parties and game nights, then it's almost like these aren't even "true" residential units. BPV would have a sizeable "temporary" population in which the actual unit is unoccupied for most of the year.

dina wrote:

newstl2020 wrote:I'm not an economics expert of the city of St. Louis, but I'm willing to be my lower body on the fact that there are PLENTY of people in the metro area who can afford 500-1 mil. dollar units. Why would only corporate big wigs be able to afford those? Now if you would have said 4-8 mil I would have agreed, but you low-balled that horribly.

Thank you! I was thinking the same thing. My spouse & I are certainly not "corporate bigwigs" (teacher and sales rep) with a combined income around 120,000 & we're looking in the 500-700,000 range. And that's a comfortable range.

A comfortable range for what? An adjustable-rate jumbo loan? Sorry--maybe I was raised more fiscally conservative, but my spouse and I make in the low 100s and 500k is what we consider well above our means. I'd like to have a retirement, thank you.

dina wrote:

newstl2020 wrote:I'm not an economics expert of the city of St. Louis, but I'm willing to be my lower body on the fact that there are PLENTY of people in the metro area who can afford 500-1 mil. dollar units. Why would only corporate big wigs be able to afford those? Now if you would have said 4-8 mil I would have agreed, but you low-balled that horribly.

Thank you! I was thinking the same thing. My spouse & I are certainly not "corporate bigwigs" (teacher and sales rep) with a combined income around 120,000 & we're looking in the 500-700,000 range. And that's a comfortable range.

And thus the reason we have a real estate "crisis"...unless of course you have a $175K or so tucked away in the bank, or are planning on winning the lottery?

it shows that the project is being built not as a sustainable mini-neighborhood. It's being built, rather, as an entertainment district, the follies of which are being discussed in other more sensible and farther ahead cities.

1.Bill DeWitt has said that he's not looking to create some cheeseball "entertainment district" but rather, an actual neighborhood. This guy went to Yale, and I believe he studied urban planning. Sure, an ESPN zone will be great for hoi polloi, but yes, I want a REAL neighborhood as well and I believe that's what BW was shooting for. Yes, we don't need a new version of STLCenter and UStation.



2. The "interior park" idea has been completely abandoned, making it even more "urban". The large scale of Centene's footprint changed this. So, essentially, we have six large blocks now, without a common, park area.



3. I don't think this tower looks bad, how can anyone even tell with the wood model. Remember, companies are in the business to make money, not create the BEST skyscraper in the world. Yes, I like shooting for the stars, but how are people ALREADY complaining.



4. Demolishing stadium east and west? Then where would people in the nearby towers park? This is already a problem that STL needs to get past in stl, but we aren't there yet.

Tysalpha wrote:

dina wrote:
Thank you! I was thinking the same thing. My spouse & I are certainly not "corporate bigwigs" (teacher and sales rep) with a combined income around 120,000 & we're looking in the 500-700,000 range. And that's a comfortable range.

A comfortable range for what? An adjustable-rate jumbo loan? Sorry--maybe I was raised more fiscally conservative, but my spouse and I make in the low 100s and 500k is what we consider well above our means. I'd like to have a retirement, thank you.

Well, I guess it's a comfortable range if you're in the Bay Area or Southern California, where potential homeowners have almost no inexpensive alternatives.

bonwich wrote:a) $48M in city real estate tax abatement

b) $26M in earnings tax and payroll tax abatement; and hotel and restaurant sales tax abatements

c) $3.7M in state sales and payroll tax abatement

d) $24M in "new market" fed credits to encourage investments in distressed markets

e) $1.9M from an additional 1-cent hotel tax

f) Up to 50 percent of the state income tax from new jobs created



Notes:

b) Nah, the earnings tax isn't an issue in attracting and retaining business to the City. Plus, it appears Centene won't be contributing a whole lot to City coffers immediately.

c) Threaten to leave, and you don't pay taxes -- if you're big enough.

d) The most prime piece of real estate downtown is "distressed."

f) Centene was already creating new jobs before Clayton so wildly screwed up. Can any business creating jobs get this credit, or does it have to move?

OK, this clarifies things a bit. Thanks to the minimum wage staffer at the PD for taking the time to actually run down some data.



BTW, f) should read: Up to 50 percent of the state income tax from new jobs created by the project abated for a certain period; total amount not yet determined



Joe, regarding d), you fail to understand the New Market Tax Credit Program. The program has nothing to do with an individual piece of real estate, so noone is saying that the BPV site is "distressed". The program provides incentives to attract major investment in markets that might not otherwise be able to attract such investment. It is designed to encourage transformative developments in low-income areas which will in turn attract additional development. I would say the Centene project is exactly the kind of development that the Treasury envisioned. Now, you can argue whether or not the downtown market as a whole is distressed, or a low-income area, IMO, I would say it still is, but, again, it has nothing to do with the individual piece of property.



The only issue I have with this incentive package are these parts: $48M in city real estate tax abatement and $26M in earnings tax and payroll tax abatement; and hotel and restaurant sales tax abatements. This is what I suspected. So, if this is correct, Centene will build 50 to 75,000 SF of retail which will receive a property tax abatement for x number of years, and then sell the retail portion of their building to Cordish/Cardinals. The property tax abatement will be transferred with the property, which means Cordish/Cards are now getting additional incentives on roughly 20% of the retail space which they were already committed to build under the previous incentive package. On top of that, it appears they will also be getting a sales tax abatement for the restaurants in this portion of the project, in addition to the TIF. If this is true, and I can only go by the data provided in the PD, this is not good.

Changes for Ballpark Village after Centene Corp. acquires land



06:24 PM CDT on Tuesday, September 25, 2007



Watch News 4 coverage



(KMOV) - Now that Centene Corporation is acquiring land in Ballpark Village for a $250 million company headquarters, many wonder how it will change the look or the composition.



It was a lightening fast deal, considering its size.



A $250 million development with Centene brokered in just six weeks.



Tuesday the man who's been living and breathing Ballpark Village, Bill Dewitt, III, tells News 4 that Centene is bringing changes to Ballpark Village.



For months Cordish, the developer of Ballpark Village has wanted office and residential buildings, with retail and entertainment at street level to be constructed in phases.



The addition of Centene moves up phase two of the development.



While the financing of the two projects is separate, many details from design, tenants to infrastructure will be a collaboration.



Dewitt admits being wrong about earlier predictions of groundbreaking, but he insists it will occur before the end of the year.

Link



Like I said, nice to see we're basically getting Phase 2 at the same time as Phase 1 now.