Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

MattnSTL · PostSep 26, 2007#24512007-09-26T03:31+00:00

Here's the new site layout courtesy of Channel 2. Charles Jaco just had a good story on the project as well. Really explained the delays well. With all the changes, delays are inevitable. Basically what has been said here in the past. Apparently some of Centene's parking will be underground as well.

The incentives will not necessarily be made up, and the city knows it. From what Jaco said, they are trying to lure Centene in with the idea that others will follow, and it will pay off through other projects. Again, this has been said here. Right or wrong, I don't know, but that's how the city is approaching it.

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 26, 2007#24522007-09-26T03:36+00:00

^ I think this is excellent as long as the mixed use includes retail and residential. From the crude drawing it appears that Centene now dominates the project, but we should remember that they are only occupying about 2/3rds of the largest tower - I think that's right - and leasing the rest of the space. I think this diversity is good for the area.

wheelscomp · PostSep 26, 2007#24532007-09-26T03:54+00:00

So will the East-West street between Clark and Walnut be a through street? In which case it will have to be named something...

MattnSTL · PostSep 26, 2007#24542007-09-26T03:57+00:00

Charles Jaco's report from tonight.

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 26, 2007#24552007-09-26T04:02+00:00

wheelscomp wrote:So will the East-West street between Clark and Walnut be a through street? In which case it will have to be named something...

I don't think there was every a through street in the design. This was the location of the plaza/covered food area/etc. and closed off otherwise. The problem here is the lack of detail on the above image.

wheelscomp · PostSep 26, 2007#24562007-09-26T04:04+00:00

Right. There never was one, and thats why I wanted to know if there is one now.

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 26, 2007#24572007-09-26T04:12+00:00

All signs point to no. Let's hope not at least - it would be cut off from the street grid and not add anything to the development - just my opinion of course.

warwickland · PostSep 26, 2007#24582007-09-26T04:12+00:00

Thats a pretty large area not to have at least one through street...arent superblocks rather taboo in current urban planning thought? kc power and light, ballpark villages sister development, has through streets with and without on street parking, preserving the original street grid. ballpark village is routinely referred to as six blocks...

MattnSTL · PostSep 26, 2007#24592007-09-26T04:17+00:00

There was to be a through street, and it appears that there will will be.

warwickland · PostSep 26, 2007#24602007-09-26T04:22+00:00

appears that the area closest to the stadium was to be "superblocked."

source - kmov

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 26, 2007#24612007-09-26T04:22+00:00

warwickland wrote:Thats a pretty large area not to have at least one through street...arent superblocks rather taboo in current urban planning thought? kc power and light, ballpark villages sister development, has through streets with and without on street parking, preserving the original street grid.

^ It's not really a superblock - the area is really three blocks, the north/south part is no wider than the Eagleton or the north/side of City Hall. Downtown StL blocks north of this area are very small compared to many cities while the blocks west (say the Midtown and the CWE) are larger themselves (1 block) than the whole BPV development.

newstl2020 · PostSep 26, 2007#24622007-09-26T04:53+00:00

So we effectively have construction of all 3 towers proposed in the centene model now at the same time, officially, for sure, no questions?

And about the mixed use corner of clark and broadway...there was no model as far as I could see in the centene model of anything being on that corner as of yet. Are they holding off any development of that corner until the condo market is assessed (pre-sale figures for tower 1 are obtained) before moving forward with any type of a design for that corner? Or is that going to be part of a retail portion which includes the base for a tower, but will be built out during phase 1?

MattnSTL · PostSep 26, 2007#24632007-09-26T04:54+00:00

Tough to say since the Centene model isn't really representative of BPV. I doubt that spot will be vacant.

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 26, 2007#24642007-09-26T04:58+00:00

MattnSTL wrote:Charles Jaco's report from tonight.

I love that he used the accurate analogy of building a house - you change the blueprints and there's going to be a delay. However, showing former retail space as solely Centene is off base, correct? The Centene properties will have two levels of retail - at least as much as was planned before.

MattnSTL · PostSep 26, 2007#24652007-09-26T04:59+00:00

^True.

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 26, 2007#24662007-09-26T05:00+00:00

MattnSTL wrote:Tough to say since the Centene model isn't really representative of BPV. I doubt that spot will be vacant.

Oh oh - gimme an urban plaza with some sculpture and a media screen!

wheelscomp · PostSep 26, 2007#24672007-09-26T05:03+00:00

That corner will not be vacant for sure. And I dont see it staying just a few floors of retail/restaurants either. Considering how that is what I think is the Prime corner of the development because of the unabstructed views into the ballpark from (conceivably) the south and west sides of a tower, my guess is that they will stick to what they had planned for the corner in the first place and end up building a condo tower in the future.

newstl2020 · PostSep 26, 2007#24682007-09-26T05:52+00:00

I agree completely, I was just curious as to what will be added on that corner during phase 1. Another tower there would likely not come until phase 2 (by which time units in tower 1 will have hopefully flown off the shelves and we get a nice 600-800 foot proposal), so I was wondering if they were going ahead with retail and a base for a tower. Retail and a base would seem constraining, unless you could build whatever you want on top of that base. What IF the demand for these is so much that a 600 ft tower becomes an extremely viable option? would they be able to use this so called "base" or would they have to raze the existing structure and rebuild from scratch?

(this is more of a personal curiosity question to engineers, so everyone else please feel free to comment but dont hesitate to disregard

)

jlblues · PostSep 26, 2007#24692007-09-26T08:08+00:00

^Yes.

PostSep 26, 2007#24702007-09-26T11:53+00:00

I just heard from a usually reliable source that the southeast corner of BPV at Broadway and Clark will feature a first-of-its-kind chain condominium tower (or tower of chains, if you prefer). It will be 629'-11 15/16" tall with 62 floors of dining and entertainment!

Each chain will own their retail space, with private elevator access, and a private patio overlooking Busch Stadium. Condo owners must provide their own exterior signage, but this may be of any design they choose and may be placed anywhere within their property lines. Deposits have been received from the following, by level:

1-2 - ESPN Zone

3-4 - Fox Sports Grill

5-6 - House of Blues

7-8 - Hard Rock Cafe - St. Louis East

9-10 - J. Buck's

11-12 - Dave & Buster's

13-14 - Cabo Wabo

15-16 - Jimmy Buffet's Margaritaville

17-18 - Yard House

19-20 - J. Buck's

21-22 - Hofbräuhaus - St. Louis

23-24 - Maggiano's

25-26 - Legal Sea Foods

27-28 - The Capital Grille

29-30 - J. Buck's

31-32 - Buca di Beppo

33-34 - P.F. Chang's

35-36 - Claim Jumper

37-38 - Ruth's Chris

39-40 - J. Buck's

41-42 - SUSHISAMBA

43-44 - Samba Room

45-46 - McCormick & Schmick's

47-48 - Fogo de Chão

49-50 - Morton's

51-52 - The Cheesecake Factory

53-54 - Roy's

55-56 - Spago

57-58 - Smith & Wollensky

59-60 - The Palm

61-62 - SkyBar St. Louis by J. Buck

(Did I miss any Joe?)

dweebe · PostSep 26, 2007#24712007-09-26T12:44+00:00

jlblues wrote:I just heard from a usually reliable source that the southeast corner of BPV at Broadway and Clark will feature a first-of-its-kind chain condominium tower (or tower of chains, if you prefer). It will be 629'-11 15/16" tall with 62 floors of dining and entertainment!

Each chain will own their retail space, with private elevator access, and a private patio overlooking Busch Stadium. Condo owners must provide their own exterior signage, but this may be of any design they choose and may be placed anywhere within their property lines. Deposits have been received from the following, by level:

53-54 - Roy's

(Did I miss any Joe?)

I know that's all BS, but I would die if a Roy's came here. Yes it's a chain, but I love their food.

threeonefour · PostSep 26, 2007#24722007-09-26T13:41+00:00

jlblues wrote:
1-2 - ESPN Zone

3-4 - Fox Sports Grill

5-6 - House of Blues

7-8 - Hard Rock Cafe - St. Louis East

9-10 - J. Buck's

11-12 - Dave & Buster's

13-14 - Cabo Wabo

15-16 - Jimmy Buffet's Margaritaville

17-18 - Yard House

19-20 - J. Buck's

21-22 - Hofbräuhaus - St. Louis

23-24 - Maggiano's

25-26 - Legal Sea Foods

27-28 - The Capital Grille

29-30 - J. Buck's

31-32 - Buca di Beppo

33-34 - P.F. Chang's

35-36 - Claim Jumper

37-38 - Ruth's Chris

39-40 - J. Buck's

41-42 - SUSHISAMBA

43-44 - Samba Room

45-46 - McCormick & Schmick's

47-48 - Fogo de Chão

49-50 - Morton's

51-52 - The Cheesecake Factory

53-54 - Roy's

55-56 - Spago

57-58 - Smith & Wollensky

59-60 - The Palm

61-62 - SkyBar St. Louis by J. Buck

All this great news has brought out the boosters, the Debbie Downers, and yes, the comedians as well!

I still think we're underserved by J. Buck's though.

debaliviere · PostSep 26, 2007#24732007-09-26T13:52+00:00

What, no Rainforest Cafe?

bonwich · PostSep 26, 2007#24742007-09-26T14:38+00:00

jlblues wrote:Joe, regarding d), you fail to understand the New Market Tax Credit Program. The program has nothing to do with an individual piece of real estate, so noone is saying that the BPV site is "distressed". The program provides incentives to attract major investment in markets that might not otherwise be able to attract such investment. It is designed to encourage transformative developments in low-income areas which will in turn attract additional development. I would say the Centene project is exactly the kind of development that the Treasury envisioned. Now, you can argue whether or not the downtown market as a whole is distressed, or a low-income area, IMO, I would say it still is, but, again, it has nothing to do with the individual piece of property.

Well, I'd say the Crown Candy-area development in ONSL might fit the bill, but I think I have a pretty good case that neither the subneighborhood in and around BPV, nor downtown as a whole, is a "low income area." Sounds to me like a parallel case to the new SLU arena, which is getting Grand Center TIF money despite the fact that it's neither in Grand Center nor will it generate any incremental taxes.

Law of unintended consequences: Programs like this are developed, and already-rich developers and entities exploit them for their own purposes.

MattnSTL · PostSep 26, 2007#24752007-09-26T15:09+00:00

And in fact, we are using New Market Tax Credits in Crown Village.

I'll agree, Downtown is not low income. But the way it is defined, the entire city is low income. Therefore, while it may n ot be right that they can use the credits, they can.

Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

Choose Display Mode