^That's what I took from the article. 1200 new jobs, in addition to the 600 already existing in Clayton.
It is a new job as in it didn't exist before, and this is good for the City itself as we will capture more revenue through earnings and consumption taxes, but in terms of regional growth and competition with other cities I am not entirely convinced. If these new positions don't attract people from other cities, and this is simply people within the MSA choosing to work for Centene in Downtown over a previous employer, then this is not regional growth. It is positive for the City in that we are trying to recenter the CBD, but that doesn't mean that we will have regional population growth by attracting workers from other regions.
Doug, job growth and population growth are two different things and should be analyzed seperately. You are looking at job growth exclusively in terms of how it effects population and that's not what people are entirely interested in when looking at job growth. Job growth means you that where you once had x number of jobs, you now have x+ number of jobs. No matter who is filling the jobs, a higher employment rate is the result. People do tend to move to cities where there are more jobs per capita because you are more likely to be employed. College students in St Louis tend to stick around if there are jobs. It is good to add jobs because that means that somone has a job in the region where they didn't before.
Well Doug says 600 (or 1200) new jobs in downtown is a bad thing so he must be right. Please take a course in logic @ UMSL, Doug.
That calculation was just the bare minimum job growth we should/ can expect. I too see it, in the short term, as a few hundred jobs in clayton and 1,200 or so jobs downtown.
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innov8ion wrote:Well Doug says 600 (or 1200) new jobs in downtown is a bad thing so he must be right. Please take a course in logic @ UMSL, Doug.
It's going to be terrible! More people paying earnings tax! Longer lines at restaurants at lunch time! More potential loft residents! Dogs and cats, living together! Oh, the humanity!!
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don't believe this has been addressed - if it has I apologize:
are the two new Centene towers in place of the proposed residentiaql towers? From the rendering I've seen - they seem to be on the very same spot. Now I know that the proposed residential towers were nio longer guranteed - but does anyone have any idea how this affects the prospect of having condos overlooking Busch?
are the two new Centene towers in place of the proposed residentiaql towers? From the rendering I've seen - they seem to be on the very same spot. Now I know that the proposed residential towers were nio longer guranteed - but does anyone have any idea how this affects the prospect of having condos overlooking Busch?
One of the towers (the second one that is only a future option) is on a block that in earlier renderings was only a retail-garage building. The other one is one of the three towers that was initially a condo /office /undecided tower. There is still at least one tower that can be condos and hotel space. There might be room for one more but I am not sure.
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hmm .... and I believe that there was a proposed "midrise" building on the far western side of the village as well. I think were on the same page. It would be helpfull if they showed the "phase 1 plus centenne" model alongside the "(proposed) phase 2 plus centenne" model.
I would hate to totally drop the residential
I would hate to totally drop the residential
Doug wrote:It is a new job as in it didn't exist before, and this is good for the City itself as we will capture more revenue through earnings and consumption taxes, but in terms of regional growth and competition with other cities I am not entirely convinced. If these new positions don't attract people from other cities, and this is simply people within the MSA choosing to work for Centene in Downtown over a previous employer, then this is not regional growth. It is positive for the City in that we are trying to recenter the CBD, but that doesn't mean that we will have regional population growth by attracting workers from other regions.
Doug-
You might better serve yourself to back off of the dogma a bit or else you might wind up being a restaurant critic.
Keeping jobs in Clayton and adding 1200 is pretty much a win for the region, I was glad to see Clayton’s mayor their yesterday.
Is there too much public participation, yep, welcome to the United States. Would you like a TIF w/ that capital.
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Beer City wrote:Doug wrote:It is a new job as in it didn't exist before, and this is good for the City itself as we will capture more revenue through earnings and consumption taxes, but in terms of regional growth and competition with other cities I am not entirely convinced. If these new positions don't attract people from other cities, and this is simply people within the MSA choosing to work for Centene in Downtown over a previous employer, then this is not regional growth. It is positive for the City in that we are trying to recenter the CBD, but that doesn't mean that we will have regional population growth by attracting workers from other regions.
Doug-
You might better serve yourself to back off of the dogma a bit or else you might wind up being a restaurant critic.
Keeping jobs in Clayton and adding 1200 is pretty much a win for the region, I was glad to see Clayton’s mayor their yesterday.
Is there too much public participation, yep, welcome to the United States. Would you like a TIF w/ that capital.
We should realize that Centene will be adding 1200 NEW jobs as they continue to expand over the next few years. As they recieved more than 50% more RFPs than requested, I think this can be lauded as success for the region, and not just the city. Rentention of a company of this size and stature, growing in both revenues and employees the way it is, can not be downplayed at all.
And then look at the Wachovia purchase of AG edwards. We gain some 100+ high end types and their families, while thousands of jobs are lost from them vacating their old HQ on the east coast. When was the last time you heard that?
And lets not forget the plans for the marketing firm taking 40k ftsq in the park pacific, and Renaissance fininacial and its 100+ employees moving to the old arena site. I think the trend has been there recently, and this puts an exclamation point on it. Maybe even several and an emoticon.
Yes, Doug, please stop with the dogma already. The Great White Fathers say that this must be a good thing, so it must be a good thing. Never inject any questions on this board, especially if they fly in the face of "it's different this time" Pollyannaism.
Don't try to tell anyone that Centene was already a St. Louis company, and would have created those same 1200 jobs within the same economic region if an overzealous municipal government didn't go heavy-handed with eminent domain. No, this is because the great and glorious government subsidized Ballpark Village made it somehow different for downtown now than it was when similar buildings were created (One City Centre, anyone) in the past.
And if you dare question, you'll be marked as cynical and anti-City. So curb your dogma, and be sure to clean up after it.
Don't try to tell anyone that Centene was already a St. Louis company, and would have created those same 1200 jobs within the same economic region if an overzealous municipal government didn't go heavy-handed with eminent domain. No, this is because the great and glorious government subsidized Ballpark Village made it somehow different for downtown now than it was when similar buildings were created (One City Centre, anyone) in the past.
And if you dare question, you'll be marked as cynical and anti-City. So curb your dogma, and be sure to clean up after it.
would have created those same 1200 jobs within the same economic region if an overzealous municipal government didn't go heavy-handed with eminent domain.
The question isn't whether the move is a good thing, it's whether the expansion of jobs is a good a thing. Of course it is. Doug wasn't questioning any of those things you are, he was questioning whether adding jobs is a good thing or not. Whether or not they moved to downtown or stayed in Clayton, adding 1200 jobs is going to be a good thing for the region, even if those jobs are filled from people within the region.
bonwich wrote:Yes, Doug, please stop with the dogma already. The Great White Fathers say that this must be a good thing, so it must be a good thing. Never inject any questions on this board, especially if they fly in the face of "it's different this time" Pollyannaism.
Don't try to tell anyone that Centene was already a St. Louis company, and would have created those same 1200 jobs within the same economic region if an overzealous municipal government didn't go heavy-handed with eminent domain. No, this is because the great and glorious government subsidized Ballpark Village made it somehow different for downtown now than it was when similar buildings were created (One City Centre, anyone) in the past.
And if you dare question, you'll be marked as cynical and anti-City. So curb your dogma, and be sure to clean up after it.
Doug, one last thing;
Be careful, you might end up being really sensitive to light hearted criticism also…
bonwich wrote:Yes, Doug, please stop with the dogma already. The Great White Fathers say that this must be a good thing, so it must be a good thing. Never inject any questions on this board, especially if they fly in the face of "it's different this time" Pollyannaism.
Don't try to tell anyone that Centene was already a St. Louis company, and would have created those same 1200 jobs within the same economic region if an overzealous municipal government didn't go heavy-handed with eminent domain. No, this is because the great and glorious government subsidized Ballpark Village made it somehow different for downtown now than it was when similar buildings were created (One City Centre, anyone) in the past.
And if you dare question, you'll be marked as cynical and anti-City. So curb your dogma, and be sure to clean up after it.
That is basically my point. I really don't see this as a huge regional gain, especially considering that a corporation adding more capital, as in facilities, in another municipality is not guaranteed to attract residents from other MSA's.
And I keep stressing attracting people from other MSA's to work here because people are saying that Centene and other corporations expanding into Downtown is positive for the region. It isn't positive for the region in terms of population if that corporation doesn't attract new residents but employs existing ones. It is good for the City as it creates more of a market for City people to choose from, and it gives more revenue for the City, but this isn't a positive move for the region unless these new jobs cause people to move here from other regions.
Moreover, if people don't move Downtown and commute to Centene, this will create more congestion on our highways. What we will probably see is more cross municipality commuting as in people live in X area and commute to Y which is where they work. But I would agree that the more corporations Downtown the higher possibility that people may move there as gasoline prices are increasing the cost of commute.
It isn't positive for the region in terms of population
No, it's positive to the region in terms of job growth. They are two different kinds of positivity for the region. You can't fault one for not having the other interlaced along with it.
...who leave a job opening behind them to be filled up by someone else. Eventually, someone is getting a job who didn't have one before. Job openings tend to get people to move to a region. Whether or not it's a direct effect or an echo effect, adding jobs is a typical yard stick for economic growth.doesn't attract new residents but employs existing ones.
So, a potential drop in unemployment, no matter how small that would really be, is not a positive for the region? More jobs is more jobs no matter where the people are coming from. Well paying on top of it.
markofucity wrote:don't believe this has been addressed - if it has I apologize:
are the two new Centene towers in place of the proposed residentiaql towers? From the rendering I've seen - they seem to be on the very same spot. Now I know that the proposed residential towers were nio longer guranteed - but does anyone have any idea how this affects the prospect of having condos overlooking Busch?
If you will recall when the announcement was made that additional financing from the state was approved, a 250 unit residential tower was included in the package. The announcement yesterday indicated that Cordish would build a 180 room hotel tower that would not count as part of their commitment for Phase I of the Ballpark Village. So at a minimum, I see two office towers, a residential tower, and a hotel tower. Would there be room left for more after all the retail is complete?
stlmike wrote:would have created those same 1200 jobs within the same economic region if an overzealous municipal government didn't go heavy-handed with eminent domain.
The question isn't whether the move is a good thing, it's whether the expansion of jobs is a good a thing. Of course it is. Doug wasn't questioning any of those things you are, he was questioning whether adding jobs is a good thing or not. Whether or not they moved to downtown or stayed in Clayton, adding 1200 jobs is going to be a good thing for the region, even if those jobs are filled from people within the region.
That's not how I read Doug, and that's certainly not how I read most of his detractors.
If there are, in fact, 600 existing Centene jobs in Clayton, Centene plans to create 600 more local jobs in the next three years. But they were going to do that anyway, whether they stayed in Clayton or moved downtown. That means, regionally, we just ponied up $130,000 per new job. We certainly can't say for sure, but it's a plausible argument that if Clayton city government hadn't screwed up so badly, said job growth would have cost local taxpayers bupkiss.
All that over and above the fact that we subsidized a new stadium to the tune of tens of millions only to be told that we needed to subsidize the now "prime" real estate adjacent to it by what, $100M, just to get it built. And now we have to pay a company to move into the space.
I'm sorry, the economics here are fuzzy at best.
datawhse wrote:markofucity wrote:don't believe this has been addressed - if it has I apologize:
are the two new Centene towers in place of the proposed residentiaql towers? From the rendering I've seen - they seem to be on the very same spot. Now I know that the proposed residential towers were nio longer guranteed - but does anyone have any idea how this affects the prospect of having condos overlooking Busch?
If you will recall when the announcement was made that additional financing from the state was approved, a 250 unit residential tower was included in the package. The announcement yesterday indicated that Cordish would build a 180 room hotel tower that would not count as part of their commitment for Phase I of the Ballpark Village. So at a minimum, I see two office towers, a residential tower, and a hotel tower. Would there be room left for more after all the retail is complete?
As long as they are willing to keep building up, there is plenty of room.
That's not how I read Doug, and that's certainly not how I read most of his detractors.
If there are, in fact, 600 existing Centene jobs in Clayton, Centene plans to create 600 more local jobs in the next three years. But they were going to do that anyway, whether they stayed in Clayton or moved downtown. That means, regionally, we just ponied up $130,000 per new job.
I don't know how you read, but Doug didn't make that point. You did.
bonwich wrote:stlmike wrote:would have created those same 1200 jobs within the same economic region if an overzealous municipal government didn't go heavy-handed with eminent domain.
The question isn't whether the move is a good thing, it's whether the expansion of jobs is a good a thing. Of course it is. Doug wasn't questioning any of those things you are, he was questioning whether adding jobs is a good thing or not. Whether or not they moved to downtown or stayed in Clayton, adding 1200 jobs is going to be a good thing for the region, even if those jobs are filled from people within the region.
That's not how I read Doug, and that's certainly not how I read most of his detractors.
If there are, in fact, 600 existing Centene jobs in Clayton, Centene plans to create 600 more local jobs in the next three years. But they were going to do that anyway, whether they stayed in Clayton or moved downtown. That means, regionally, we just ponied up $130,000 per new job.
All that over and above the fact that we subsidized a new stadium to the tune of tens of millions only to be told that we needed to subsidize the now "prime" real estate adjacent to it by what, $100M, just to get it built. And now we have to pay a company to move into the space.
I'm sorry, the economics here are fuzzy at best. [/i]
Thanks Joe. I was pretty happy about this news but now see that we got screwed on the deal. $130,000 a person to keep the jobs here. Once again St. Louis does the wrong thing.
Like the Rams I'm betting Centene will be out of here in 10 years when someone else offers a better deal.
stlmike wrote:That's not how I read Doug, and that's certainly not how I read most of his detractors.
If there are, in fact, 600 existing Centene jobs in Clayton, Centene plans to create 600 more local jobs in the next three years. But they were going to do that anyway, whether they stayed in Clayton or moved downtown. That means, regionally, we just ponied up $130,000 per new job.
I don't know how you read, but Doug didn't make that point. You did.
Doug didn't make it explicitly, but I could (and did) interpret that he meant the same thing when he wrote:
The jobs are relocating Downtown but they are not new to the region. Good for Downtown and a loss for Clayton.
bonwich wrote:stlmike wrote:would have created those same 1200 jobs within the same economic region if an overzealous municipal government didn't go heavy-handed with eminent domain.
The question isn't whether the move is a good thing, it's whether the expansion of jobs is a good a thing. Of course it is. Doug wasn't questioning any of those things you are, he was questioning whether adding jobs is a good thing or not. Whether or not they moved to downtown or stayed in Clayton, adding 1200 jobs is going to be a good thing for the region, even if those jobs are filled from people within the region.
That's not how I read Doug, and that's certainly not how I read most of his detractors.
If there are, in fact, 600 existing Centene jobs in Clayton, Centene plans to create 600 more local jobs in the next three years. But they were going to do that anyway, whether they stayed in Clayton or moved downtown. That means, regionally, we just ponied up $130,000 per new job. We certainly can't say for sure, but it's a plausible argument that if Clayton city government hadn't screwed up so badly, said job growth would have cost local taxpayers bupkiss.
All that over and above the fact that we subsidized a new stadium to the tune of tens of millions only to be told that we needed to subsidize the now "prime" real estate adjacent to it by what, $100M, just to get it built. And now we have to pay a company to move into the space.
I'm sorry, the economics here are fuzzy at best.
I think most can agree that from a purely economic point of view, this deal will not end up as some big win for the city and region. This is usually the case with big subsidizes to attract corporations. The economic research on this seems to be pretty conclusive; you rarely reap anywhere close to the amount you sow.
That said, there are two things to consider:
1. Had the St. Louis region offered no money, while other regions and states threw money at Centene, we would be talking today about Centene moving to Colorado or Virgina and taking that job growth with them.
2. Massive subsidies seems to be part of the game all cities and suburbs use now to lure economic development, so while the free-marketer in me might dislike them, better St. Louis City play the game well than be left in the dust holding steadfast to its principles.
It might not be pretty. It might not be the best way of doing business. But better downtown and the region play the game well and win than continue to fall further behind.
OK, but in everyone's defence, that could mean a lot of things as it is a vague statement. Yours was a very precise one. I took Doug's quote to mean that he thinks of it as good for the city and a loss for Clayton. I consider this to be true, but I also consider all that has happened to be a gain for the region considering the addition of 1200 jobs effects the whole region. Doug has stated that it is bad for the region, but did not elaborate on any of the specific and precise points that you have made.