wheelscomp wrote:And whats best, the two Centene buildings arent even the tallest ones in the model. The tower nearest the stadium on Clark street was taller than the two office towers.
KSDK showed the same thing.
KSDK showed the same thing.
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TimeForGuinness wrote:If Centene stayed in Clayton and the public (especially on this board) found out that Downtown was in the running but came up short due to tax relief, I'm sure Slay would be torn a new one for not being aggressive enough.
Do I like the way business is handled these days, no...will it change...not until the cost of business in this country dips below China and/or the rest of the world.
I completely agree with both points. Mayor Slay's in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position again. I don't like the (ab)use of public subsidies either, but it seems like those that don't play the game usually get left behind. I was excited about the announcement when I first heard the news after returning from a weekend road trip. While some cautionary perspective is necessary and shouldn't be taken lightly, I still feel very good about this deal overall.
ThreeOneFour wrote:TimeForGuinness wrote:If Centene stayed in Clayton and the public (especially on this board) found out that Downtown was in the running but came up short due to tax relief, I'm sure Slay would be torn a new one for not being aggressive enough.
Do I like the way business is handled these days, no...will it change...not until the cost of business in this country dips below China and/or the rest of the world.
I completely agree with both points. Mayor Slay's in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position again. I don't like the (ab)use of public subsidies either, but it seems like those that don't play the game usually get left behind. I was excited about the announcement when I first heard the news after returning from a weekend road trip. While some cautionary perspective is necessary and shouldn't be taken lightly, I still feel very good about this deal overall.
Even a heavy hitter like Chicago had to bend over and grab their ankles to get Boeing to locate their HQ there.
I think that this can be considered the best news for downtown in since the revitalization began. The downtown snowball has grown to critical mass and cannot be stopped. I didn't expect for jobs to start returning to downtown so early in the process, but this definitely lends credibility to any company looking to relocate downtown. More jobs = more demand for residential, entertainment, amenities, etc. This could be the tipping point... awesome!
The model showed that the new building at Broadway and Walnut features a wide, sweeping, curved shape facing the Arch. Very cool. Looks to me about the same height as the Bank of America Building on Market (I'd guess about 30 stories). Of course, the final building may end up looking very differant.
Someone's gotta post an image of that model!
Someone's gotta post an image of that model!
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Framer wrote:Someone's gotta post an image of that model!
I was watching it on DVR and went back and looked several times at the models...the tallest building looked to be maybe a little less than twice the size of the Hilton...
I'll give this a shot (not the best picture by far)
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what4 wrote:bonwich wrote: ...
Now, however, we have the city giving away another hundred mill or so -- and likely Clayton looking to give away the store to fill the void left by Centene.
It's nice Centene is staying, but it looks like a Pyrrhic victory, and business as usual in the St. Louis region.
i agree with your statement about centene bargaining with the private land owners to secure the land they wanted, but hey hindsight is 20/20.
as for the new hq location, i am no expert in the financial dealings that went down to secure centene's HQ in bpv - but i don't understand how the city can be giving away something they never had - the tax income from something (hq) that never existed on that site in the first place. i would phrase it as a tradeoff - giving up fiuture tax income from centene in exchange for other benefits such as the 1% city tax for 1200 new workers (i'm no fan of this tax btw, but i'm sure it was in the cities thoughts), potential real estate tax income from the new workers who move to DT, and especially maintainig the momentum in DT investment (retail, restaurants, other service industries) that partly results from the influx of new downtown residents/workers, etc. ... benefits that may be hard to measure in some circumstances but that seems like the gamble a lot of cities take rather than being left out in the cold. will the city ever recoup this potential source of revenue? maybe.. maybe not - but i'd rather the city try than wait.
I'm not sure that anyone here is a real expert on these tax incentives, but I tend to think of it in the same way as you. I don't understand how someone can seemingly assume that some great business would have built here if only we . . . I don't know, waited, snapped our fingers, ??? Maybe it would be nice if large corporations located in St. Louis just because they thought the city was great, but that's not reality. Downtown and the region benefit from having these 1,200 additional jobs - it sounds as though Centene will maintain an office in Clayton and that these are new jobs? Hopefully no one will tell future Centene employees of the devastating income tax rate in the city of St. Louis - certainly no one would apply to work there if they only knew . . . .
You know, Centene's hq is going to be adjacent to the lumbering Ballpark East parking garage. Is that not large enough for their needs? Do that many people park there already? Though the proposal does have accomodations for retail and a future tower, I'd hate to see another block consumed by parking when there are other facilities that are up to the task. Otherwise, two thumbs up.
This was certainly nice to come home to. While I have some minor concerns about the proposed parking garage, this seems to sound pretty solid. Downtown scores the headquarters of a rapidly growing corporation and we get a couple of towers as well.
I'll celebrate now and leave my cynicism for another day.
I'll celebrate now and leave my cynicism for another day.
It doesn't look much smaller than the AT&T Center or the US Bank Plaza.
MattnSTL wrote:This was certainly nice to come home to. While I have some minor concerns about the proposed parking garage, this seems to sound pretty solid. Downtown scores the headquarters of a rapidly growing corporation and we get a couple of towers as well.
I'll celebrate now and leave my cynicism for another day.
That's pretty much how I feel. I worked today, got off at 6pm , and went to the cards game, which was great , btw.
Sounds like great news.
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Hard to tell what we are going to get from the video for sure, but the fact that they have a second tower in place, to me, shows that they are fairly committed to the idea of a second tower. I would not place much on the shape of the two towers that are highlighted in the videos, it is not uncommon at all to place filler models in place of real designs. We don't really know what's going to go in there until renders are presented to the city in order to obtain construction permits. Looks pretty good though. Very pleased as well to see the third major tower next to the stadium. Looks to be significant condo development (hopefully).
dweebe wrote:Even a heavy hitter like Chicago had to bend over and grab their ankles to get Boeing to locate their HQ there.
Chicago/Illinois incentives to Boeing: $63M.
Boeing's annual revenue: $52.6B.
The state of Illinois lured at least 400 jobs (probably very well-paying jobs) away from the State of Washington.
Part of the incentive was needed to get an existing tenant to move out of a fully occupied building (into another downtown Chicago space) to make room for Boeing.
Intangible: Cachet value of saying "Chicago is home to Boeing."
St. Louis incentives to Centene: $78M. "More promised" from the state.
Centene's annual revenue: $2.3B.
The state of Missouri creates no net new jobs by Centene moving from Clayton to St. Louis.
Intangible: Cachet value of saying "St. Louis is home to Centene."
On the KSDK feed I watched this morning, Mayor Slay can be overheard telling someone "no, it won't block the Arch".
:bash:
-RBB
:bash:
-RBB
That's all Fox 2 was concerned about last night. Every person they talked to worried about the view from Busch Stadium and how it would be affected.
My wife agrees. She thinks they need to just put in a park. I feel so sorry for her.
My wife agrees. She thinks they need to just put in a park. I feel so sorry for her.
MattnSTL wrote:This was certainly nice to come home to. While I have some minor concerns about the proposed parking garage, this seems to sound pretty solid. Downtown scores the headquarters of a rapidly growing corporation and we get a couple of towers as well.
I'll celebrate now and leave my cynicism for another day.
Yes, I am celebrating, too. I didn't see it until this Monday morning. A good way to start the day and week.
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uuuhhhggg... The view of the arch from the west is hardly a bleep on my radar. 
would someone please post the amended site plan from the front page of stltoday.com
thanx
there are also so other pics of the model
thanx
there are also so other pics of the model
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bonwich wrote:dweebe wrote:Even a heavy hitter like Chicago had to bend over and grab their ankles to get Boeing to locate their HQ there.
Chicago/Illinois incentives to Boeing: $63M.
Boeing's annual revenue: $52.6B.
The state of Illinois lured at least 400 jobs (probably very well-paying jobs) away from the State of Washington.
Part of the incentive was needed to get an existing tenant to move out of a fully occupied building (into another downtown Chicago space) to make room for Boeing.
Intangible: Cachet value of saying "Chicago is home to Boeing."
St. Louis incentives to Centene: $78M. "More promised" from the state.
Centene's annual revenue: $2.3B.
The state of Missouri creates no net new jobs by Centene moving from Clayton to St. Louis.
Intangible: Cachet value of saying "St. Louis is home to Centene."
Boeing was going to leave Washington no matter what, and they weren't going to build their headquarters in a city in which they already had a presence. They also weren't going to go to a smaller town...which pretty much left NYC, Chicago, San Fran and Denver. Plus they wanted to be in the center of the country which left Chicago as their destination. Sure Chicago gains 400 new well-paying jobs, but the situation is different. Boeing was going to move, why should they get incentives if they make that much money?
St. Louis does not attract jobs like a Chicago or NYC and never will...it doesn't matter how good we think toasted rav's and are. The point is that we kept 1,200 well-paying jobs in the region while adding to the rebuilding of downtown in an area that does not have a lot of density. There are positives and negatives with this deal, there always will be. But, I think having a fortune 500 company move to St. Louis "just because" is a pipe dream.
Maybe Centene should have left the area, that way we'd have another $78 million to put towards a Mississippi River bridge.
I am not a fan of corporate incentives, but as long as other places are doing it (especially large corporate cities), we have to do it to remain competitive until we get our national image out of the toilet.
Mill204 wrote:You know, Centene's hq is going to be adjacent to the lumbering Ballpark East parking garage. Is that not large enough for their needs? Do that many people park there already? Though the proposal does have accomodations for retail and a future tower, I'd hate to see another block consumed by parking when there are other facilities that are up to the task. Otherwise, two thumbs up.
I worked downtown 4 years ago and had to park in Stadium East, and yes, it fills up during the business week. Believe it or not, most of the high rises downtown don't have enough internal parking spaces in for everyone -- so companies give meter passes to their less important people to park in the stadium and kiener garages.
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BGeldy wrote:That's all Fox 2 was concerned about last night. Every person they talked to worried about the view from Busch Stadium and how it would be affected.
My wife agrees. She thinks they need to just put in a park. I feel so sorry for her.
my suggestion to those people would be to stick around after the ballgame, take a stroll over to Kiener Plaza or elsewhere downtown to view the Arch and Courthouse--Time you usually spend sitting in traffic on the onramp to 40 and I-70
RBB wrote:On the KSDK feed I watched this morning, Mayor Slay can be overheard telling someone "no, it won't block the Arch".
:bash:
-RBB
It will probably block the Old Courthouse, however. As much as I like sitting in the stadium and seeing the old (courthouse) and the new (Arch) together, this is something we just need to get over. Having good, dense construction with more jobs DT is more important than a view for the few games a person goes to a year.
That's great. I don't think building # 2 was originally going to be a tower of much height.
While we're still all in good spirits about this, I wanted to add a congratualtions to Mayor Slay and the St. Louis City team -- according to the timeline on StlToday, Centene's request for proposals went out June 20. That's incredibly fast to put together this proposal and sell Centene on it, especially considering that Cordish and the BPV folks must have had to be brought on board.