Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

bonwich · PostSep 23, 2007#21762007-09-23T21:36+00:00

Recent USA Today article on use of tax incentives to lure or keep businesses

I'm glad everyone is so thrilled about $78 million in corporate welfare used to get a company to move 10 miles. I disagree, and USA Today appears to back me up, at least in part.

moorlander · PostSep 23, 2007#21772007-09-23T21:37+00:00

Shimmy wrote:So construction is a year late, but this news is worth it.

I find it really interesting how this deal is structured. I know one of reasons it took so long is because city hall had to convince Cordish that is was in their best interests to sell some of their land. I wonder how this will effect the site plan (if at all) and I would can't wait to see the new renderings. props to mayor Slay for putting this all together.

publiceye · PostSep 23, 2007#21782007-09-23T21:37+00:00

What does 700,000 Sq. Ft. Equate to in height? 30-35 stories

27-28

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 23, 2007#21792007-09-23T21:40+00:00

bonwich wrote:Recent USA Today article on use of tax incentives to lure or keep businesses

I'm glad everyone is so thrilled about $78 million in corporate welfare used to get a company to move 10 miles. I disagree, and USA Today appears to back me up, at least in part.

Well, if you have USA Today on your side, what can any of us say?

arch city · PostSep 23, 2007#21802007-09-23T21:51+00:00

publiceye wrote:
What does 700,000 Sq. Ft. Equate to in height? 30-35 stories

27-28

Perhaps you know that is how tall the building will be? Will it be 27 or 28-stories? If so, good deal.

[700,000sq ft could be a 32, 36, 40, 25 etc. story building. It depends on the footprint and design. Of course this won't be the case for the Centene project downtown, but a 700,000 building could even be a sprawling 5-story building - in the suburbs, of course.]

thewayofthearch · PostSep 23, 2007#21812007-09-23T21:54+00:00

Fox is reporting approx. 26 stories in height.

matguy70 · PostSep 23, 2007#21822007-09-23T21:56+00:00

Also, these types of tax incentives are nothing. They are about in line with incentives offered by other municipalities and states to lure (or keep) that many jobs. I am glad that city officials were aggressive.

Actually, this is absolutely true everywhere.

On Firday, Clayton offered Centene another incredible package to remain downtown Clayton with many tax breaks and incentives (According to KMOX)... yet Centene decided to move Downtown.

What does 700,000 Sq. Ft. Equate to in height? 30-35 stories

Really anywhere from 30-50 stories (or more)- just depending on the entire layout & architectural design of the tower. The Metropolitan Square Tower in Downtown St. Louis is 42 stories tall - and approx. 933,000 sq. footage. The Met bulding is very bulky too.

It will matter if there is residential attached or other commercial space as well in the tower too. Will it be the MW Tower??? Rumored for so long and waited for so long. Rumored to be near Ballpark Village... who knows!

Although - the following towers are at about 700,000 square footage as well.

This is 650,000 Sq. Footage:

newstl2020 · PostSep 23, 2007#21832007-09-23T22:14+00:00

WOW. This is the next best thing that could possibly have happened out of BPV for downtown. Talk about an absolute victory for the Slay administration. After all that's happened, he might just go down as one of the most important people involved in the revitalization of downtown. As far as the tif goes, It is absolutely necessary right now in order to keep the current momentum going in downtown right now. Cities such as New York, Chicago, and others still use huge amounts of tax incentives to keep hold of corporations, and if they believe it is necessary it is absolutely necessary for STL as well. I think these numbers are right but I believe in agreeing to move to their new tower in Lower Manhattan, Goldman Sachs was given around 2 billion in incentives. Much larger and more prosperous company, but if you compare that move in NY to this in STL, I can't help but think we are gaining a HUGE win here.

Oh, and a gaurunteed new addition to the skyline! What's not to be excited about here guys?!

arch city · PostSep 23, 2007#21842007-09-23T22:19+00:00

bonwich wrote:Recent USA Today article on use of tax incentives to lure or keep businesses

I'm glad everyone is so thrilled about $78 million in corporate welfare used to get a company to move 10 miles. I disagree, and USA Today appears to back me up, at least in part.

I am glad Centene is taking the risk where other corps wouldn't/haven't.

I think it is better to offer incentives to move ten miles than to move out of the state altogether. Let's face it, a corporation this large moving INTO the city and not out of the city is unprecedented. It is risk for them - even with the incentives, but the city needed to nab this HQ. There's a residual effect.

BTW, Detroit is having corps moving back to the city regularly.

bonwich · PostSep 23, 2007#21852007-09-23T22:23+00:00

newstl2020 wrote: I think these numbers are right but I believe in agreeing to move to their new tower in Lower Manhattan, Goldman Sachs was given around 2 billion in incentives. Much larger and more prosperous company, but if you compare that move in NY to this in STL, I can't help but think we are gaining a HUGE win here.

Believe what you'd like, but the total projectprice for the Goldman Sachs building is $2 billion, with $115 million in incentives. Is the $78 million in welfare being given to Centene in addition to the approximately $100 million (or roughly 25 percent of project value) in incentives already provided to BPV, or are we now talking about a roughly 50 percent public subsidy in comparison to the 5 or 6 percent that Goldman Sachs got?

Geez, don't you hate it when data shows up?

jmatthewmckee · PostSep 23, 2007#21862007-09-23T22:25+00:00

haha this thread is gonna be hot for awhile. i love it! glad to see all of the positive energy here! I do worry sometimes about the tax breaks...I'll agree that it's a must to compete with all of the other cities. BUT...will we get to a point where we just drive each other into the ground and the benefits of maintaining or attracting a company from the perspective of the municipal government are negligible? Just a thought. It'd be nice to see tax breaks gone across the board. But as long as one city offers them, we're in a position that we have to offer them as well. Beyond that, yes! I'm still ecstatic!

jmedwick · PostSep 23, 2007#21872007-09-23T22:38+00:00

Good news and a job well done to all those involved, particularly Mayor Slay for getting the deal done. If he gets the blame when things go wrong, he should get the praise for this deal. Nice work. =D>

As for thoughts on the move:

1. Good to see downtown adding a major employer to address what some might mockingly call the "jobless" downtown recovery.

2. All joking aside, the additional class A space with this tower will make downtown more competitive, combined with refurbishing of One City Center. Downtown should have a pretty good collection of office locations for prospective firms. As a side note, I have to figure that the combined One City Center and Centene projects kills the possibilities of a MW Tower like development and that is ok with me (for now...).

3. Bonwich does bring up a valid concern over the use of such tax incentives. Rarely do the economic benefits of such subsidies outweigh the cost of the subsidies. That said, it seems to be part of the game all cities and suburbs use now to lure economic development, so while the free-marketer in me might dislike them, better St. Louis City play the game well than be left in the dust holding steadfast to its principles.

4. Broadway at Walnut seems like a good location for the office tower, as this corner would be the farthest from the ballpark and as residential development offer less fantastic views of the ballpark. Better to see this is office while leaving the bases buildings along Clark for possible residential development.

5. While I am happy to hear about the tower and its location, I am concerned as to how this project, particularly the secondary tower / parking , fit in with the overall Ballpark Village. As the article states, the second block will contain 1,750 parking spaces, two floors of retail, and up to 500,000 square feet of office space. Given that previous discussions of the Ballpark Village centered around the total of 3,000 parking spaces, all built underground, there are some important questions to answer. Are the Centene project's 1,750 spaces included in the 3,000 figure previously quoted? Will the 1,750 parking spaces be mostly under or above ground? It would be a shame to see the progress of the announcement combined with the development of the Ballpark Village marred with a 10 story parking garage dominating a block in what should be a dense urban development marking downtown progress away from the "new office and attached garage" downtown development method that was the hallmark of previous administrations.

absolut355 · PostSep 23, 2007#21882007-09-23T22:42+00:00

ok I haven't started to read anything yet because I wanted to post first -

is it weird that I yelled outloud when I just saw this on stltoday.com?

and, I started clapping my hands...

continue...

newstl2020 · PostSep 23, 2007#21892007-09-23T22:43+00:00

bonwich wrote:
newstl2020 wrote: I think these numbers are right but I believe in agreeing to move to their new tower in Lower Manhattan, Goldman Sachs was given around 2 billion in incentives. Much larger and more prosperous company, but if you compare that move in NY to this in STL, I can't help but think we are gaining a HUGE win here.

Believe what you'd like, but the total projectprice for the Goldman Sachs building is $2 billion, with $115 million in incentives. Is the $78 million in welfare being given to Centene in addition to the approximately $100 million (or roughly 25 percent of project value) in incentives already provided to BPV, or are we now talking about a roughly 50 percent public subsidy in comparison to the 5 or 6 percent that Goldman Sachs got?

Geez, don't you hate it when data shows up?

Hey I came right out and said that was what I thought, and I'm prefectly fine admitting my error. Good job. The point about cities offering large subsidies when they don't need to (NY) still stands. Stl is at a critical turning point now, and you are obviously on the other side of this debate, but I am willing to allow large incentives for the time being as we rebuild our downtown into a great area, as opposed to not using tif and losing corps left and right to other cities while our downtown runs itself into the ground like it had done from about 1950 to 1985-ish. THIS IS NECESSARY AS LONG AS TIF IS BEING OFFERED ELSEWHERE. Slay and the city are doing what is justifiably necessary to bring stl back to the point where people are going to love being in downtown like other metropolitan areas. This is just the start, but it is a hell of a good one.

PostSep 23, 2007#21902007-09-23T22:50+00:00

5. While I am happy to hear about the tower and its location, I am concerned as to how this project, particularly the secondary tower / parking , fit in with the overall Ballpark Village. As the article states, the second block will contain 1,750 parking spaces, two floors of retail, and up to 500,000 square feet of office space. Given that previous discussions of the Ballpark Village centered around the total of 3,000 parking spaces, all built underground, there are some important questions to answer. Are the Centene project's 1,750 spaces included in the 3,000 figure previously quoted? Will the 1,750 parking spaces be mostly under or above ground? It would be a shame to see the progress of the announcement combined with the development of the Ballpark Village marred with a 10 story parking garage dominating a block in what should be a dense urban development marking downtown progress away from the "new office and attached garage" downtown development method that was the hallmark of previous administrations.

Great point. I'm just assuming but I would think that these would be additional spaces, as I do not believe the original plans for BPV ever considered the possibility of a company this large moving in. However, they have an opportunity to make these parking spots into a plus. If they indeed decided to add another 500,000+ sq in tower form, they would be able to build a tower which begins with 2 stories of retail, then goes to 10 (or so) stories of parking to a lot for the 1750 spaces, and then continue upward with the 500,000+ sq ft of office space. This would eliminate the "parking garage feel" to anyone on street level, and would add height to another possible tower, making a more impressive skyline. (For an example, check out Trump Tower in Chicago, it has the look and feel of one continuous tower, while there are almost 15 floors of above ground parking over the initial retail floors.)

moorlander · PostSep 23, 2007#21912007-09-23T23:26+00:00

bonwich wrote:
newstl2020 wrote: I think these numbers are right but I believe in agreeing to move to their new tower in Lower Manhattan, Goldman Sachs was given around 2 billion in incentives. Much larger and more prosperous company, but if you compare that move in NY to this in STL, I can't help but think we are gaining a HUGE win here.

Believe what you'd like, but the total projectprice for the Goldman Sachs building is $2 billion, with $115 million in incentives. Is the $78 million in welfare being given to Centene in addition to the approximately $100 million (or roughly 25 percent of project value) in incentives already provided to BPV, or are we now talking about a roughly 50 percent public subsidy in comparison to the 5 or 6 percent that Goldman Sachs got?

Geez, don't you hate it when data shows up?

Cordish is selling the land to BM so the incentive package will be modified accordingly...

citywatcher · PostSep 23, 2007#21922007-09-23T23:28+00:00

I agree with Grover and think that this news will bring more downtown residents.

chesterfieldkid03 · PostSep 23, 2007#21932007-09-23T23:30+00:00

Centene to build headquarters downtown

St. Louis Business Journal - 3:19 PM CDT Sunday, September 23, 2007

Centene Corp. Chief Executive Michael Neidorff, along with city and state officials, announced today that the company will undertake a $250 million development that would create a headquarters on a portion of the Ballpark Village site.

The project, called Centene Center, will mean more than 1,200 new jobs downtown within three to five years. U.S. Equity Partners and Clayco will develop the project.

It is the first major corporate headquarters to locate downtown in more than 50 years and the first major new office building construction in nearly 20 years.

The project calls for Centene to buy a two-block site at the corner of Broadway and Walnut from Cordish Co., which is working with the St. Louis Cardinals to develop Ballpark Village. The move does not relieve or change the obligation of Cordish and the Cardinals to develop Ballpark Village.

The first phase of Centene Center calls for a 700,000-square-foot office tower of up to 27 stories with street level retail and parking on one block. The second block will initially have a 1,750-car parking garage with street-level retail. It will be configured so a second office tower of up to 550,000 square feet could be built atop the garage to accommodate future growth.

Centene will initially occupy about 400,000 square feet in the 700,000-square-foot tower, with 300,000 square feet available for other tenants until Centene needs the space.

The development is in addition to the $387 million development Cordish has already committed to in Phase I of Ballpark Village.

As part of the project, Cordish will build a 180-room hotel in Phase I of Ballpark Village. The hotel will not count toward Cordish's obligation in Phase I of Ballpark Village.

Centene plans to keep its presence in Clayton.

The city of St. Louis is offering incentives valued at about $78 million, including tax abatement, tax increment financing (TIF) and sales tax and personal property tax abatement. Other incentives include about $24 million in New Markets Tax Credits and state financing incentives.

St. Louis-based Centene Corp. (NYSE: CNC) provides managed-care programs and related services to individuals under Medicaid. It also operates health plans in Georgia, Indiana, New Jersey, Ohio, Texas and Wisconsin. Centene reported 2006 revenue of $2.28 billion.

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stor ... st=b_ln_hl[/b]

bonwich · PostSep 23, 2007#21942007-09-23T23:38+00:00

newstl2020 wrote:Hey I came right out and said that was what I thought, and I'm prefectly fine admitting my error. Good job. The point about cities offering large subsidies when they don't need to (NY) still stands. Stl is at a critical turning point now, and you are obviously on the other side of this debate, but I am willing to allow large incentives for the time being as we rebuild our downtown into a great area, as opposed to not using tif and losing corps left and right to other cities while our downtown runs itself into the ground like it had done from about 1950 to 1985-ish. THIS IS NECESSARY AS LONG AS TIF IS BEING OFFERED ELSEWHERE. Slay and the city are doing what is justifiably necessary to bring stl back to the point where people are going to love being in downtown like other metropolitan areas. This is just the start, but it is a hell of a good one.

I submit that it's a huge oversimplification to say that there are only two "sides" to this debate.

I was also unaware that downtown had "run itself into the ground." Last I heard, our good downtown booster orgs still tout about 90,000 jobs downtown.

As for the period 1950-1985, I don't go back quite to the beginning, but to imply that the city didn't give out tons of freebies to big corporations back then sort of ignores the Southwestern Bell building, getting TWA to move here (hey, now that was a great investment, wasn't it?), the second Busch stadium, Union Station, Union Market, and St. Louis Centre. (And let's not forget that other great St. Louis corporate success story, General American.)

The best possible scenario for this whole Centene scenario would have been for Centene to negotiate a price with the private landholders whose land it wanted, with the City of Clayton staying the hell out of private business. (Ironically, now we're in the totally ludicrous situation of Clayton -- Clayton -- doing other projects with TIFs.)

Now, however, we have the city giving away another hundred mill or so -- and likely Clayton looking to give away the store to fill the void left by Centene.

It's nice Centene is staying, but it looks like a Pyrrhic victory, and business as usual in the St. Louis region.

matt drops the h · PostSep 23, 2007#21952007-09-23T23:52+00:00

bonwich--

It is comforting to hear a voice of caution amidst the emotional celebrations of civic boosters.

I have a feeling a private land exchange would have lessened the chances of a future judgeship or title of governor for Mayor Slay...

That said, my biggest concern with this announcement is what someone else has already mentioned--parking.

The underground solution was best. If there was one outright plague of downtown south of Olive Street, it's a horrific collection of absolutety ugly and lifeless parking garages. Often I think St. Louis's downtown, despite our remaining architectural treasures, is among the nation's ugliest and most parking/autocentric. Even with ground floor retail, a parking garage visibly sitting on top of Ballpark Village land is a bad thing.

It is my belief that Ballpark Village development should also include the demolition of parking garages to the east of the stadium and creation of mixed-use buildings in their place--in essence, an expansion of the current BPV site, complete with underground parking as well.

Centene's presence might cause a slight shift up in demand for on-site residential, which some mid-rises on the site of these unsightly garages could accommodate.

what4 · PostSep 24, 2007#21962007-09-24T01:33+00:00

bonwich wrote: ...

Now, however, we have the city giving away another hundred mill or so -- and likely Clayton looking to give away the store to fill the void left by Centene.

It's nice Centene is staying, but it looks like a Pyrrhic victory, and business as usual in the St. Louis region.

i agree with your statement about centene bargaining with the private land owners to secure the land they wanted, but hey hindsight is 20/20.

as for the new hq location, i am no expert in the financial dealings that went down to secure centene's HQ in bpv - but i don't understand how the city can be giving away something they never had - the tax income from something (hq) that never existed on that site in the first place. i would phrase it as a tradeoff - giving up fiuture tax income from centene in exchange for other benefits such as the 1% city tax for 1200 new workers (i'm no fan of this tax btw, but i'm sure it was in the cities thoughts), potential real estate tax income from the new workers who move to DT, and especially maintainig the momentum in DT investment (retail, restaurants, other service industries) that partly results from the influx of new downtown residents/workers, etc. ... benefits that may be hard to measure in some circumstances but that seems like the gamble a lot of cities take rather than being left out in the cold. will the city ever recoup this potential source of revenue? maybe.. maybe not - but i'd rather the city try than wait.

timeforguinness · PostSep 24, 2007#21972007-09-24T02:53+00:00

If Centene stayed in Clayton and the public (especially on this board) found out that Downtown was in the running but came up short due to tax relief, I'm sure Slay would be torn a new one for not being aggressive enough.

Do I like the way business is handled these days, no...will it change...not until the cost of business in this country dips below China and/or the rest of the world.

That being said, on FOX tonight (ugh)...they had a basic model of the two (2!) towers that would be built. Looked to be similar in size (if not larger) than the Hilton, but I didn't get a good look.

tysalpha · PostSep 24, 2007#21982007-09-24T03:42+00:00

Matt Drops The H wrote:...The underground solution was best. If there was one outright plague of downtown south of Olive Street, it's a horrific collection of absolutety ugly and lifeless parking garages. Often I think St. Louis's downtown, despite our remaining architectural treasures, is among the nation's ugliest and most parking/autocentric. Even with ground floor retail, a parking garage visibly sitting on top of Ballpark Village land is a bad thing....

The area around Kiener Plaza and the old stadium was questionable architecturally, but otherwise our downtown is pretty fabulous.

As for the Centene parking garage, I'm curious to see what they have in mind. It's possible that the outsides of those floors will have offices or retail, with the parking in the core. With this approach the garage would hardly be noticable, except for some ventilation panels.

Elaboration: Aha. I see that their second building is only going to be a parking garage w/street retail -- they'll only build the second tower on top if it's needed. Hmm.

wheelscomp · PostSep 24, 2007#21992007-09-24T03:45+00:00

I just went to the myfoxstl website and watched the video from tonights news and the buildings in the model look twice as big as the hilton towers. They still look like the big box scyscrapers proposed for Clayton, but they looked VERY big to me in comparison to the Hilton. Pretty Cool.

PostSep 24, 2007#22002007-09-24T03:47+00:00

And whats best, the two Centene buildings arent even the tallest ones in the model. The tower nearest the stadium on Clark street was taller than the two office towers.

Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

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