urbanSTL

Well it's pretty easy to sum up how this has quickly gone from a downtown changing opportunity to an (almost) complete waste of time and money. 1200 parking spots. Good. THANK GOD. I was just waiting to hear about another 1200 parking spots that we absolutely DO NOT need in downtown. PARKS AND PARKING. PARKS AND PARKING. When is this city gonna wake up? That gets NOTHING. Im for cutting the funding for this project entirely until Cordish and the Cards commit to building at least 3 30+ story towers. If they don't? I dunno, confiscate the land and GIVE it to someone who has a clue as to what to do with it. It's such a shame this property is even being questioned as to whether or not it's going to have towers. That should be the one thing that is gaurunteed in this project.

jefferson wrote:I'm not getting the same sense of dread that others are over the latest news. Given the timeline and the amount of time since any major non-governmental office tower has been built in downtown, it behooves the Cards and Cordish to move cautiously. I can't help but trust the statement posted earlier that if Phase I is a success than the others will be built out to the max.

And when will we know Phase 1 is a success, as judged by the developers of course? 2011, 2015, 2020?

jefferson wrote:What does still concern me is the amount of public funding going to the project, and the possibility (probability?) that any new office tenants will simply be relocating from other downtown locations. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that, but for $100 million in subsidies, I agree that there needs to either be a major new employer downtown or a significant residential component. Otherwise it’s a waste of resources that could be put to better uses than attracting development to what should be one of the most attractive parcels of land in the region.



question: does phase I completely cover Cordish/Cards' contractual obligation?

I believe it does, yes. From what I have seen, they were never obligated to build any residential or office space. They were only obligated to build something - read anything - which is what we are getting. Thus my concern from the beginning that this was all smoke and mirrors.



As far as the mayor goes, if he is indeed pushing hard for residential, then he obviously hasn't been very effective. And if he is so concerned about residential, why wasn't some sort of commitment spelled out in the TIF agreement???

As far as the mayor goes, if he is indeed pushing hard for residential, then he obviously hasn't been very effective. And if he is so concerned about residential, why wasn't some sort of commitment spelled out in the TIF agreement???



exactly



Getting over my previous anger now, I've gone back to my thoughts that there is going to be at least one significant residential tower built on this location, whether or not it is done by Cordish/Cards is a different question. Still pissed at them. However, I'm sure we will see at least 1 residential tower by 2010 in the works.

jlblues wrote:From what I have seen, they were never obligated to build any residential or office space. They were only obligated to build something - read anything - which is what we are getting. Thus my concern from the beginning that this was all smoke and mirrors.

I was more optimistic about this development, but like MattnSTL, I'm troubled by what I've seen lately.



And I'm increasingly concerned that what we're going to get is a glorified lifestyle center that could actually have an adverse affect on efforts to attract large scale retailers to the more established areas of downtown.



Don't get me started on the lack of residential or the anemic size of the proposed office space in Phase I.



Hopefully we'll get a better idea of what's planned soon.



I'm starting to lose my enthusiasm for this project, and I'm beginning to think the skeptics are right about the Cardinals owners after all.

I really think that Jefferson is right on this one. They must have done studies that showed that support for residential wasnt "blow-them-out-of-the-water" positive. I think this is sad, because everyone on here or anyone who has heard about it thinks that residential would be a no-brainer. BUT apparently, Cordish didnt think that they would sell every unit offered fast enough. (I know everyone thinks thats absurd) However, we can all be confident that if the first phase is a big hit, they will want to expand on their initial project.



I know they are HQed in Baltimore, but they have done multiple projects in Bmore because they have been such successes. We all know how great Cards fans are, and whatever restaurants and stores locate in the BPV will get great business from us.



One last thought. Once Cordish has finished everything and (this may be the case) they have not built any residential, another developer can buy the building on Clark street looking into the stadium and build a residential tower.

wheelscomp wrote:I really think that Jefferson is right on this one. They must have done studies that showed that support for residential wasnt "blow-them-out-of-the-water" positive.

Wouldn't it have been better to start a waiting list with earnest money to judge the interest level? A man with a family from out-of-town at the Billy Joel concert gave us his card and asked if we would contact him if we heard information on the condos. He was interested in buying. He already had two group of season tickets at the ballpark, even though it takes him 3 hours to get to St. Louis.



Studies are often flawed. Business schools cite the study Ford conducted that showed conclusively that people would not pay extra for a driver side backseat door in a mini-van. Chrysler did it anyway and Ford mini-van sales fell 2 years behind the competition and off the radar screen.



I'm sure the people in the poll answered honestly -- but good marketing changes minds. Otherwise why do it? It think these particular condos would attract a national clientele. St. Louis Cardinals were ranked the 4th most popular baseball team in the country recently. They may be comparing to slow condo sales near the ballpark in San Diego. But in that city -- a beach condo or La Jolla is the prime view. In St. Louis, this will be the prime view.

I live in Baltimore and have seen a lot of the Cordish developments in the inner harbor area. The developments are nice, but are all medium size: 4 or 5 stories with retail on the ground level and office space above. They have not built any residential in the inner harbor to my knowledge. It looks like Cordish is going to follow their established playbook in the Ballpark Village, which will be nice, but not jaw droppping amazing like we are all hoping for.

Will someone please explain to me why we're all not livid about these announcements? Unless I'm missing something, they're building exactly what hasn't been successful downtown: retail and restaurants w/o residential or office space. (Reference Union Station and St. Louis Centre) I'm usually optimistic, but if this goes through as announced I can see a dead zone that's closed except for when the cards are at home. After reading this I thought for sure we'd be trying to stop phase 1 from going ahead w/o office or residential space. STLUP?



In my opinion, this is developmental suicide. 80% of STL suburbanites don't have a clue about the many great things happening downtown and will base their opinions about whether it is a viable place to live on how this project turns out. I'll puke if at a ballgame I have to listen to someone from Chesterfield tell their friends that the residential demand downtown was really a short-term trend, and the BPV couldn't even sustain a single residential unit. This is quite depressing.

[start vent]

My gut feeling is that we will now be lucky to see any towers in this development. If Phase I completely occupies the land area with retail, how happy are the retail tenants going to be when there is construction cranes and crews building high-rises above their stores, deterring customers from coming? Do you honestly think Cordish is telling ESPNZone - hey, you can open now but be advised there will be further construction in later years which might impact people's interest in walking near your restaurant. Believe me, it would be harder to line up tenants if this was the case.



I'm a big fan of Mayor Slay. However, in this instance, I think he screwed us and the city big time by not either zoning this area to require the density we expected, or making the cities public contribution somehow grow with the amount of total space in the development. Didn't Cordish state that "this piece of land must be one of the most desirable in the country"? If that's the case, the ONLY way to build it out should be high-rise development like their renderings show.



Wow, in the last two years we've went from 3 high rises in BPV, 3 more high rises in TBD, and a Roberts Tower. Now, the Roberts Tower looks most likely - which IMO is scary considering the stuff I've read recently about it on this board. It looks like Metropolitan will actually come through with Skyhouse at least. But, what a 180 from a couple years ago when it looked like STL was turning the corner with dense new development downtown.



Sad, very sad. Tough to get excited about STL renaissance with this.

[end vent]

Looks like the view of Downtown from Clayton will remain the best new-highrise option in the area if you are looking for something with a view. Are we sure we shouldn't look into offerring this prime real-estate to someone with more imagination?



St. Louis must be sending out vibes like "we don't do bold anymore". We need something that might entice people from Indianapolis or Kansas City to want to visit when there is no game. I think the KC Power and Light district meets that criteria. I'm wondering if current plans will draw people from St. Charles County. It is starting look a lot like the Village at O'Fallon, MO.



http://www.thevillageatofallon.com/docu ... 07_000.pdf

I'm not bothered by the parking, because I believe much of that will be underground. In fact, I'd like to see them building 4 times that amount of parking underground, then we can knock down The East and West garages, putting more infill in there.

I love how Cordish's website isn't even close to what we're getting now.

Ballpark Village is a $650 million mixed-use retail/entertainment and residential district being developed in partnership by The St. Louis Cardinals and The Cordish Company. Ballpark Village will cover six city blocks that will directly connect to the new Busch Stadium, which opened in the spring of 2006. Ballpark Village will feature approximately 450,000 square feet of retail/entertainment, 1,200 residential units, 300,000 square feet of office and 2,000 parking spaces. Located in the heart of downtown St. Louis, MO, Ballpark Village will be a world class district that will redefine the Gateway to the West.

Phase I - $387/287 million - doubt later phases will reach a total of $650 million

Phase I - no residential - so how is this a residential district Cordish?

1200 residential units - none now, and up to 250? C'mon...

300,000 sq. ft office - maybe this will actually get reached in Phase II or III (likely "fantasy" phases)

2000 parking spaces - even this was decreased to 1200! I guess you don't need as much parking when no one lives there and no large businesses will reside either!

the village idea was FOUNDED upon the idea that it would become a residential neigborhood - a self sustaiing neighborhood - with real residents that would keep it thriving in the off season and so on. Without the residents this is just an outdoor st. louis center. I really don't understand this at all. ... and I really doubt that St. Louis has sufficient demand for three new office towers.



I suppose it could still work if the residential is built up around it ... which may happen if cupples progresses as we expect and the other dowtown developments go forward .... but I don't know - this has me worried. they essentially want to build another landing next to the stadium .

A report on Fox2 this morning said that BPV may break ground in October!

Wasn't it early September like 2 days ago?

Although it is not high-rise, there are significant new residential areas planned to abut the Oakland Athletics new stadium and Ballpark Village.



http://www.bayareanewsgroup.com/multime ... 062907.pdf

So, I tinkered around with an idea that I think would be better than what they are doing. Threw a couple things together, what do you guys think:







Looks pretty good eh? See those three big towers I came up with, those are residential towers. I think this is what Cordish should build.

^ Ok, that's funny. I do have a serious question though.







The area I've outlined in red. Does anyone have information that these mid-rises are still being built as part of Phase I? Is this the 100,000 sq. ft. of office space, or were these supposed to be condos?



I hope at least these buildings are still part of the plans and that end of the district will be rather dense.

The way I took it, the mid-rises would be built as part of the first phase. This assumes for one of them that the bowling HOF is not tied up in a long legal battle. Hopefully Cordish will outline what exactly the 1st phase plans are. I'm going to look through some info I have to see if there is anything about how the phasing would be done.



One of the market studies does explicitly state that residential in this location would likely sell very well.

I have a serious question as well. I realize that having the *supposed* condo towers where they are located on the above render would insure better views into the stadium for all of the condos...why don't they switch the plans so that the midrises are located on the east and the *towers* are on the west? This would serve many purposes. The fans and Cards could be assured the picturesque (sp? sorry) view of the arch and downtown, but with the added benefit of some midrises below blocking the view of the current parking structure. In addition, this would give the team plenty of time to negotiate with the BHOF, which would let them start construction...well...now. They could keep the identical plans, just switch the eastern and western halves. Problems solved! I don't think the condo views would be compromised, as they would (hopefully) be planned to be significantly higher than the stadium. I think the original plans deffinitely look much better, as the brand new high-rises would look unbelievable, but I think this would allow the whole project to proceed in a way that would ultimately leave us with a better chance of having a better final product (as the BHOF and towers are, at the very least, extremely questionable right now.) Oh, and we would also have to look at the pit through Busch for the least amount of time possible, as that would begin construction immediately. Thoughts? Wanna send this to Cordish? Whatever.

^ -- High-rises? Mid-rises? Did I read incorrectly or are we getting no residential and no commercial in phase 1? If that's the case I'd say we're getting No-rises.