urbanSTL

I know it's too early to speculate, but I cannot help but worry that in the summer of 2009, we'll have a half-complete and/or half-hearted project. Forget the residential, and it's a repeat of St. Louis Centre and/or Union Station.

I can't imagine that anything part of this project will be complete by the 2009 All-Star Game, but I'm also not worried about it. I think a backdrop of building, change, and excitement would be great. I look forward to showing others that St. Louis is changing.

(I can post again!!!!)



I'm uneasy about this as well. On the one hand I understand the need to allow for flexibility and I firmly believe that there will ALWAYS be a market for residential units that overlook the stadium ..... but this is St. Louis - and we have a history of grand, no-brainer projects that somehow never manage to break ground

we have a history of grand, no-brainer projects that somehow never manage to break ground

And we have plenty of other new projects that do happen, and even more projects that represent the sustained stewardship of their owners and operators.



The MoBot G, the Zoo, and the SLSO manage to renew themselves when their peers in other (and larger) cities flounder. Expensive parts of the CWE, Lafayette Square, Soulard were pretty sketchy not that long ago. The loft district was a glossy city book when I moved onto Washington Avenue in 1991. The revitalization of Forest Park seemed impossibly expensive 15 years ago. Cortex lived on a shelf for 20 years.



A thread like this is good place to voice your fears, but it is also a good place to recall and celebrate your successes.

You can say that again.

publiceye wrote:

we have a history of grand, no-brainer projects that somehow never manage to break ground

And we have plenty of other new projects that do happen, and even more projects that represent the sustained stewardship of their owners and operators.



The MoBot G, the Zoo, and the SLSO manage to renew themselves when their peers in other (and larger) cities flounder. Saint Louis U couldn't attract out of state students in the 1970s. Washington University was really a good back-up school choice until the 1980s. Expensive parts of the CWE, Lafayette Square, Soulard were pretty sketchy not that long ago. The loft district was a glossy city book when I moved onto Washington Avenue in 1991. The revitalization of Forest Park seemed impossibly expensive 15 years ago. Cortex lived on a shelf for 20 years.



A thread like this is good place to voice your fears, but it is also a good place to recall and celebrate your successes.

I agree PE, Finally some optimism...

OT:by the way I hope to meet you @ the pinnacle MG tent next weekend... forcast shows rain, let's hope they're wrong

publiceye wrote:


I'm not sure that SLC and US belong in the same analysis.

Maybe not. There are options left for Union Station. And there are some successes there, particularly the hotel(s). Meanwhile, we're still waiting for a workable solution to address the most glaring problem- the dearth of attractive retail options. I'm hardly the first person to suggest that Union Station- retail and all- might fare better if a significant residential component was nearby. Supposedly the station's current owners are exploring their options, which means it's likely to languish in its current state for the foreseeable future.



Saint Louis Centre was almost a failure by design, but who's to say that things wouldn't have been different if downtown had a significant amount of residents at that time? I'm not suggesting that the mall would've been a raging success, but a similar (although much better-executed) concept works fine in Indianapolis, a city with many downtown residents.



In short, to make downtown vibrant, it must be someone's neighborhood. I like to think of Ballpark Village as a small downtown within a downtown. Unless there are at least SOME people living there, I don't hold out much hope for its success. At least to me, the success of condos within Ballpark Village seems like a no-brainer based on the talk I've heard around town. If there's any risk involved, it's that demand at Ballpark Village might negatively impact other residential projects in downtown, i.e., a zero-sum situation, although that's not the Cardinals' or Cordish's problem.

ThreeOneFour wrote:

publiceye wrote:


I'm not sure that SLC and US belong in the same analysis.

Maybe not. There are options left for Union Station. And there are some successes there, particularly the hotel(s). Meanwhile, we're still waiting for a workable solution to address the most glaring problem- the dearth of attractive retail options. I'm hardly the first person to suggest that Union Station- retail and all- might fare better if a significant residential component was nearby. Supposedly the station's current owners are exploring their options, which means it's likely to languish in its current state for the foreseeable future.



Saint Louis Centre was almost a failure by design, but who's to say that things wouldn't have been different if downtown had a significant amount of residents at that time? I'm not suggesting that the mall would've been a raging success, but a similar (although much better-executed) concept works fine in Indianapolis, a city with many downtown residents.



In short, to make downtown vibrant, it must be someone's neighborhood. I like to think of Ballpark Village as a small downtown within a downtown. Unless there are at least SOME people living there, I don't hold out much hope for its success. At least to me, the success of condos within Ballpark Village seems like a no-brainer based on the talk I've heard around town. If there's any risk involved, it's that demand at Ballpark Village might negatively impact other residential projects in downtown, i.e., a zero-sum situation, although that's not the Cardinals' or Cordish's problem.

I think we all are impatient and forget that DT is still young in it's rebirth. How many residential units are currently under construction and plan to open by 2010? I think it's something around 1800. I think once a substantial amount of those are absorbed we will see the retail follow. I think it's funny how everyone expects major retailers to take a huge risk. Let's see how the neighborhood matures over the next few years.

hey I don't deny our successes ... I'm just concerned. And despite our successes - I think I have reason to be.

bpe235 wrote:I think we all are impatient and forget that DT is still young in it's rebirth. How many residential units are currently under construction and plan to open by 2010? I think it's something around 1800. I think once a substantial amount of those are absorbed we will see the retail follow. I think it's funny how everyone expects major retailers to take a huge risk. Let's see how the neighborhood matures over the next few years.

Yes, I am impatient, but I realize downtown's rebirth is just beginning.



I don't expect major retailers to take a risk. Apparently, Cordish, the Cardinals, and city leaders do, because they are the ones demanding over 300,000SF of retail space within Ballpark Village. I've just stated that I think the success of said retail would be more likely with residents in Ballpark Village, but that's just my opinion.



I am excited about the recent successes downtown, and throughout Saitn Louis. I still think much more can and will be accomplished. And I've mostly been a tireless booster of the city on this forum and others. But there's nothing wrong with skepticism, especially when Cordish and the Cardinals are thinking about scaling back a crucial component of Ballpark Village, and when there's reason to doubt whether other major developers like the Roberts Brothers and/or Pyramid can deliver on their lofty (no pun intended) promises for downtown.

Even if Cordish decides that market studies to not warrant building condo towers, maybe other developers will take this opportunity to build ones on other prime locations around the ballpark. If it ends up that no residential tower is built in BPV then maybe another developer will buy the parking lot between Point 400 and the stadium or develop something on top of the metro line between the Westin and the stadium. Cordish's lack of confidence may instill confidence in others who were wary of building with so much new residential going in nearby...

I for one am not concerned at all about the residential portion of the project. It's a political move by Cordish to ensure they are not slammed, if the general residential market crashes during the next two plus years. As long as the market in DT stays relatively strong, which I think most of us believe it will, the residential portion of BPV will be a hit.



In fact, I'd suffice to say, that we'll see even more residential than we originally thought. Once the first phase happens, and the first condos get snatched up like hotcakes, they'll reevaluate for phase two and three. That is why these things have to be done in phases.

I think that if you can't build residential around Busch Stadium in St. Louis, you might as well forget the urban rebirth. That's the one project around that should have no problem selling out their units. I've said this before, I think. But I just can't imagine 30 story towers NOT selling out...in fact, the only thing I'd worry about is people killing over the opportunity to own property with a view of 82 Cardinal games.

^ Great point! Plus incentive to bring more jobs here ala a transition from income tax to property tax. If somehow we can get more business here, that would be the fuel behind the next surge in downtown renaissance. More jobs downtown -> more downtown residents -> more downtown infrastructure (grocery, restaurants, retail). And imagine, a more bustling downtown is a safer one as well. Go BPV w/ a good mix of office space and some residential!

I also believe that the market for BPV is a little different from the one living on Washington Avenue. This type of product, coupled with the location, appeals to a larger and more traditional "county-friendly" demographic than lofts.



It is also much more visible to the everyday home buyer than the lofts. How many people come downtown for ballgames only and leave without ever realizing what's a few blocks north of them? It'd be kind of hard to miss BPV.

trent wrote:I think that if you can't build residential around Busch Stadium in St. Louis, you might as well forget the urban rebirth. That's the one project around that should have no problem selling out their units. I've said this before, I think. But I just can't imagine 30 story towers NOT selling out...in fact, the only thing I'd worry about is people killing over the opportunity to own property with a view of 82 Cardinal games.

I agree. This should be a different clientele altogether. Elton John might be the type of buyer for a unit overlooking the ballpark. They are not remotely competing with other downtown properties, so the market for other downtown condos will have no effect on BPV residential sales.



I wonder if it is more tied to the return on investement from commercial vs. residential - even high end residential.

SShoe wrote:It is also much more visible to the everyday home buyer than the lofts. How many people come downtown for ballgames only and leave without ever realizing what's a few blocks north of them? It'd be kind of hard to miss BPV.

Good point, I agree. Architecture aside, I like the new stadium simply because it is somewhat open to the city. You really feel like a part of the city (well, vs. the old stadium). That will make that property known for sure. Even the lofts just west of the new stadium will be less known.

Gary Kreie wrote:Elton John might be the type of buyer for a unit overlooking the ballpark.

I wish he'd move here. I'd love to see him tell off some members of our local media.

I doubt Elton John is a huge baseball fan.... he is from England and he does (or did at one point) own his own soccer team. But someone like Billy Bob Thornton (life long cardinals fan) would be a more likely celebrity.

...or jessica simpson or scarlet johansson... imagine them leaning over their 15th story balcony to watch the game in front of millions on ESPN

tbspqr wrote:I doubt Elton John is a huge baseball fan.... he is from England and he does (or did at one point) own his own soccer team. But someone like Billy Bob Thornton (life long cardinals fan) would be a more likely celebrity.

Yeah, given his love for the Cards, BBT might be one of the first customers with a deposit check in hand.

bobby knight is a huge birds fan too... i can see him now tossing a chair off the balcony

Maybe redneck woman Gretchen Wilson can keep her Christmas light up all year long on her Ballpark Village condo.



The deck on John Goodman's condo will have to be quadruple reinforced.