urbanSTL

First how can we be sure this project will be a success?

Because it's associated with the Cardinals who draw over 3 million in attendance per year. That's possibly 3 extra million people walking through BPV a year during just baseball season.



Anything associated with the Cardinals will be a success in this city.

Doug wrote:First how can we be sure this project will be a success?

We can't. It will stand or fall on its own merits.

Doug wrote:Second TIF's were originally intended for urban blight and not corporate subsidy.

True, but that horse left the barn decades ago.

Doug wrote:Third the stadium will only be around for 35 years. Assuming this project is a success, do you think residents living adjacent will appreciate the demolition?

Do you have evidence to support that?

Doug wrote:Third the stadium will only be around for 35 years. Assuming this project is a success, do you think residents living adjacent will appreciate the demolition?

Good point, Doug! I was intent on buying a unit in the Ballpark Village. I thought that the proximity to Busch stadium would be great for ballgames, and it's location would be perfect being so close to everything downtown has to offer. I was also really excited about the retail and restaurants that'll be on site. Everything seemed so awesome, and I thought it'd be 'the place to live' in St. Louis. -BUT THEN- I thought about how in 35-100 years there might or might not be a demolition of the stadium that could be kind of close to where my unit would be located and how that may or may not inconvenience me in some way. That definitely changed my mind. Who could tolerate the mere possibility of something like that?! No way these things will sell.

Doug wrote:First how can we be sure this project will be a success?



Second TIF's were originally intended for urban blight and not corporate subsidy.



Third the stadium will only be around for 35 years. Assuming this project is a success, do you think residents living adjacent will appreciate the demolition?

So given two options: build it with TIF money or leave it a big empty lot, which would you prefer? It sounds like you would cut your nose off to spite your face and say "no TIF money".



And like Central Scru said, that issue left long ago when places like Chesterfield, Fenton and Wildwood started using TIF. But even with the TIF money the BPV will still pump millions of tax dollars into the city and school district coffers. Would you prefer none?

A deal has been made and it was announced that this was moving forward last night!



I disagree that anyone buying a loft downtown in the "Ballpark Village" would be turned away by possible demolitionin 35+ years...there are a lot more things to be concerned with than a new stadium IMO. I just don't know how that case can reasonably be made.

SoulardD wrote:

Doug wrote:Third the stadium will only be around for 35 years. Assuming this project is a success, do you think residents living adjacent will appreciate the demolition?

Good point, Doug! I was intent on buying a unit in the Ballpark Village. I thought that the proximity to Busch stadium would be great for ballgames, and it's location would be perfect being so close to everything downtown has to offer. I was also really excited about the retail and restaurants that'll be on site. Everything seemed so awesome, and I thought it'd be 'the place to live' in St. Louis. -BUT THEN- I thought about how in 35-100 years there might or might not be a demolition of the stadium that could be kind of close to where my unit would be located and how that may or may not inconvenience me in some way. That definitely changed my mind. Who could tolerate the mere possibility of something like that?! No way these things will sell.

what the heck...I guess you all are assuming that just because busch II lasted that long that busch III will see the same fate... First of all I don't see this being the case and second of all... that's 35 years from now, what is the likely hood that would effect any of the buyers today even if it were true???

metzgda wrote:...I bet there will be a Wolfgang Puck restaurant and an Emeril restaurant. I'm not particularly excited about both

May I ask why? Would you also prefer not to hire a proven or recognized architect for the job? I am really not trying to start an argument, I just wondered.



I normally don't go for branding, but I have been to a Wolfgang Puck restaurant and it was excellent. Now, his branded airport places (Express) are another ballgame ( )...Host run and the same food as the Jose Quervo's, or any other restaurant, etc in the airport...I mean literally the SAME (Host) food and service.

1.

Second TIF's were originally intended for urban blight and not corporate subsidy.

OK - just stop it - this is the umpteenth time this has been brought up. It's just not relevant to today's development. As was stated - this was changed many years ago and has been widely accepted.



2.

BUT THEN- I thought about how in 35-100 years there might or might not be a demolition of the stadium that could be kind of close to where my unit would be located and how that may or may not inconvenience me in some way. That definitely changed my mind. Who could tolerate the mere possibility of something like that?! No way these things will sell.

OMG!!!! Quick - someone name a single building anywhere in the metro area that will not be in close proximity to demolition, construction or other change within the next 100 years! That's just rediculous!

^Soulard was being sarcastic. Hence the



But yeah, if you live in a dense urban area you're essentailly choosing to live with demolition and construction every couple of decades....



I think Doug's concern is that if the stadium goes, the people go. I agree only if we think of Ballpark Village in a vaccum. Ideally, the Village is going to bring people downtown who otherwise wouldn't move in. Lots of them, and baseball being the main incentive. With all these people and businesses moving in, IF WE DO IT RIGHT, the surrounding area will blossom as well and hopefully gain stability independent of the stadium and the attractions. If we can do this, the loss of a stadium is not going to harm the village. It all depends on how well we do the job from the beginning.

JMedwick wrote:\Remember not ever year will the team be good, draw over 3 million fans.

The Cardinals have one of the strongest fan following and game attendance in the league - good or bad team... Even in the last "post-season dry spell" from 97 thru 99 when we finished 4th, 3rd, and 4th in the division (11, 19, and 21.5 games back), the average attendance was still over 3 million for each of those seasons. The lowest attendance in the last 10 years was over 2.6 million.

Yeah, but during that dry spell we also had the Mark McGwire thing going on, but I'm not saying your wrong. We do have one of the largest fanbases in all of the MLB if not all of American sports.

I heard it was gonna be a third PF Changs that was moving into BPV... any thoughts? oh and probably a whole foods too

Second TIF's were originally intended for urban blight and not corporate subsidy.

It is urban blight, otherwise we wouldn't be complaining about how bad it looks on TV.



And in its current state who would build anything but a parking garage on the site without some sort of subsidy?



The biggest corporate subsidy in downtown development is Historic Tax Credits, do you have a problem with that?

metzgda wrote:Seriously, I bet they sell these condos out within a week, especially if most have views into Busch. Hopefully once they are full, they can immediately start on another condo tower. I wish they would just bump the size of this tower to 35 or 40 stories, b/c I bet they sell them all.

Especially if they ride the wave of cardianls enthusiasm that goes along with our 10th world championship... Im not sure if this is just happening at the right time or if they planned to release the information, but heck - can u ask for a better selling tool for a "ballpark village" than to have the tenants of that ballpark being world champions....



I was a little disapointed by the "22 - 25 story" size... i was hoping for at least 30... but again that could all change quickly depending on demand...

I am really excited by this, though I'd love to see them build higher in the first phase.



1. Is the garage above ground? If so, will there be street-level retail? There are a couple structures in the model on the Fox story that look like they could be garages. But, because I can't see much at that resolution, I can't really tell.



2. How many people will buy these condos as a second home? If a bunch of people keep living in the county, but buy a BPV condo as a place next to the stadium, it won't add to street life when there's no Cardinals game. I'd like this project to add as much vibrancy to downtown streets as possible, but I fear many people will just buy here as a place to go during games.

^^ no doubt this will happen some, but all that will do is inflate the demand, and they will build bigger towers... so there will be a lot of people living there year round and a lot plus those occasional residents some parts of the year... as long as we get 2000+ residence, as well as a destiation that people come from the county to visit (emerill or ESPN) then there will be plenty of vibrancy (but with a taller tower)

There's a great angle picture of Ballpark Village I have never seen before on the Cardinals Website:



http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp ... p?c_id=stl



It's the second item on the little news ticker on the left.

Here's the picture from stlcardinals.com

It's hard to see at such a small scale, but so far I like the design. It seems to be modern without screeming "look at me!"

That is f'in awesome.



Added density and new things to downtown = GOOD. Adding to skyline looking from the East = GOOD. More money being pumped into DT STL = GOOD. Getting rid of that dirt patch = GOOD.

I'm confused (i know - I know - no comments please). .... is that the same design that we have been looking at for the last few months. It looks different for some reason.... where's the hilton? Is it behind those three towers?

Maybe this one will help see more detail:

Here's how it will be laid out: