^That looks great. I give it a 9 out of 10. They get a 10/10 if they get rid of that "park", aka unecessary greenspace, and put in another tower.
^ I don't know. The park is ok, but really, downtown does not need that park and Kiener Plaza. One of the two will not be used and since the new park is closer to the new stadium, all of those great downtown pep rallys for the Cards won't be a Kiener anymore, which is sad.
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yeah it does appear to be the same design. Though the "layout above" is a little confusing because it only deals with the lower levels (I assume that those 8 - 12 story buildings on the western edge will comprise of housing on top?) .... and whats with the "glass roof"? I don't remeber seeing that anywhere. I suppose they will have a covered plaza like are for those rainy days - would be cool to see how they plan on designing that.
Actually considering what it is that's a good use of a park area. Being fans will have a place to congregate etc. The wasted park space is a big long strip to the North LOL.
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I’m glad they are going to developed the whole lot in the first phase.
Sure, behind the Cubs, Yankees & Red Sox...
stlmike wrote:Yeah, but during that dry spell we also had the Mark McGwire thing going on, but I'm not saying your wrong. We do have one of the largest fanbases in all of the MLB if not all of American sports.
Even better:
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^There's also an image somewhere on this thread of a view from the street level. [EDIT: I see somebody found it, thanks!]
This is so great. So I'm guessing those white spaces are for vehicular traffic? And seeing as no space has been specifically set aside for garages, can we assume they're underground? Or is that what the "mixed use" buildings are for?
I'm really pleased that it seems as if they're sticking to the original renderings--let's hope they do.
Go Cards and go Saint Louis!
This is so great. So I'm guessing those white spaces are for vehicular traffic? And seeing as no space has been specifically set aside for garages, can we assume they're underground? Or is that what the "mixed use" buildings are for?
I'm really pleased that it seems as if they're sticking to the original renderings--let's hope they do.
Go Cards and go Saint Louis!
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JMedwick wrote:^ I don't know. The park is ok, but really, downtown does not need that park and Kiener Plaza. One of the two will not be used and since the new park is closer to the new stadium, all of those great downtown pep rallys for the Cards won't be a Kiener anymore, which is sad.
Totally. It seems like the only use Kiener Plaza gets these days is for Cardinal pep rallies, which I'm sure will take place in the BPV park when it's complete.
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oh ..... I thought the glass roof was going to stretch for several blocks. ... i have seen the little one before ....
this project rocks. Now if we can just get the 80 story MW building to go up directly west of the stadium ......
this project rocks. Now if we can just get the 80 story MW building to go up directly west of the stadium ......
No worries, i'm sure the fair Reverend Rice will recruit some bums for the park. It'll add to the atmosphere. And isn't Kiener Plaza where the Taste of St. Louis was held? Do they hold other festivals there too? But yeah, I agree that it is mostly empty...
Urban Elitist wrote:^That looks great. I give it a 9 out of 10. They get a 10/10 if they get rid of that "park", aka unecessary greenspace, and put in another tower.
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that park would be a good place for a homeless shelter .....
Just to clarify, I said that the Cardinals have ONE of the biggest fanbases in baseball, not THE biggest.
innov8ion wrote:No worries, i'm sure the fair Reverend Rice will recruit some bums for the park.
Sadly, this wouldn't surprise me.
So are we looking at a 2009 completion date?
If that park's going to be there, I would love to see some sort of mostly outdoor restaurant/cafe take up a good chunk of it.
On the end of "resturant row" facing the "park" would be an awesome place for a huge 'times square' style video board set up with screens showing games and marquees showing scores and stats to all games etc... and then you can have out door seating to eat etc....
True, my bad...
stlmike wrote:Just to clarify, I said that the Cardinals have ONE of the biggest fanbases in baseball, not THE biggest.
I am not saying that both parks can't be used. I mean heck, if both are/were surounded by solid density (offices on the Kiener garage site, a tower on Mike Shannons and on the GenAm building site) having both parks would be fine. Even without all of that, both parks maybe fine, as both can work well as good random lunch places in the summer. I mean the new BV park will be good for Cardinal games and as a gathering spot for the new development in the area and Kiener will likely continue to serve its current purposes, sans Cardinal pep rallys.
But you can't have all of this parkland downtown. There is already too much, most without any clear purpose. Untill the Mayor and others realise the harmful effects of too much green space, we will never see St. Louis reach its true potential. Desnity drives the need for green space. Green space should not drive the need for density...
But you can't have all of this parkland downtown. There is already too much, most without any clear purpose. Untill the Mayor and others realise the harmful effects of too much green space, we will never see St. Louis reach its true potential. Desnity drives the need for green space. Green space should not drive the need for density...
This assumes people will simply adopt an urban lifestyle. How can we be sure this will actually happen? Many projects have been done yet there is still a stream of cars leaving Downtown after work and a stream going Downtown for a Cardinals Game. Did people move Downtown when the City Centre was built? Have these villages attracted people from outside the City Limits in other Cities?
If I am wrong, and people would move Downtown for PF Changs and other stores which exist in the County, then where will they park? Are we going to demolish more historical buildings for ugly garages?
If this project fails we will be out the money and instead of a hole we will have another City Centre. A failed BPV would be a far bigger eyesore for everyone to see.
Lets not forget the hole existed due to corporate action. Old Busch could have lasted for 200 years as it was solid reinforced concrete. Remember the wrecking ball bounced off the Stadium?
If these huge projects are going to be done then why not have multiple developers handle small sections? The reason Cross County was over budget is because the entire project was contracted to one company.
Listen, I want this to work out but historically there have been many promises and mistakes. I don't want another City Centre, especially next to the Stadium. In the end I hope it works.
BTW, we have plenty of failed green space downtown. No more please.
If I am wrong, and people would move Downtown for PF Changs and other stores which exist in the County, then where will they park? Are we going to demolish more historical buildings for ugly garages?
If this project fails we will be out the money and instead of a hole we will have another City Centre. A failed BPV would be a far bigger eyesore for everyone to see.
Lets not forget the hole existed due to corporate action. Old Busch could have lasted for 200 years as it was solid reinforced concrete. Remember the wrecking ball bounced off the Stadium?
If these huge projects are going to be done then why not have multiple developers handle small sections? The reason Cross County was over budget is because the entire project was contracted to one company.
Listen, I want this to work out but historically there have been many promises and mistakes. I don't want another City Centre, especially next to the Stadium. In the end I hope it works.
BTW, we have plenty of failed green space downtown. No more please.
Doug, people aren't moving downtown for PF Changs or stores, they're moving downtown because they are staring into the Cardinals games from their windows. Those other things just keep them from leaving. Metrolink is a block away. Maybe they'll try it out and like it.
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i really don;t see how "we" will be out of money if the project fails ... the "public funding" comes from tax abatements .... taxes that are there ONLY if the project gets built.
there is a fundamental difference between this and st. louis centre - it has RESIDENTS.
there is a fundamental difference between this and st. louis centre - it has RESIDENTS.
And when it was built St. Louis Centre had zero residents... now there are residents all around there... and this will add many more... thats the key to being a sucess -- having residents there... which was one of the points the Mayors office was a stickler about... I agree the risk is a lot more, but the reward is so so much greater as well. It is a prominate development in the center of the city that includes highrises that will be seen on TV for years (during baseball games) but I think they (the mayor, cordish, cards owners) are going about it in a correct fashion... even if it hasn't worked perfectly in other cities... it need not work perfectly -- just to a high level of sucess - which it most likely will.
Listen, I want this to work out but historically there have been many promises and mistakes.
There is nothing to really compare this to in the history of St Louis because none of those past failed projects included residential. And if residential won't work for this, what would it work for? I think the Cardinals might be the only thing all St Louisans froth at the mouth for.
If you're saying people aren't going to move downtown for BPV, what would you suggest we do to get them down there?
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by your logic - i guess we shold just never build in downtown ever again .... i mean - aren;t you essentially arguing that because past projects have failed ALL projects will fail