urbanSTL

Given the current downtown residential market, the new-ness of the development, the location that even city detractors would think is cool, it really is unbelievable how much of a no-brainer having residential on this site is. It seems it would take a tremendous amount of either obliviousness or indifference to not be looking into this.

beer city wrote:One thing that puzzles me about P&L - it is suppose to be a 600 million dollar deal, the construction used there is pretty cheap.

Their developments are very tacky. When walking around P&L, I can’t help but think “this is like calling plaster columns on a Wal-mart ‘upscale’ ”.
As far as the "where the money did go" question… they build are 2 huge garages (nearly 2000 spaces - I’ve heard the underground garage cost $60M). They had 14 or 15 linear blocks of streetscape improvements. That work can cost anything for $0.5M/block to $1.5M/block (Washington Ave) – I have no idea how much they spent. That is in addition to the 9 blocks of development: 4 of new 1&2 story buildings, 2 of renovated buildings and a 1 block office tower (H&R Block = different project). The remaining 2 blocks are surface parking.

(P&L’s first) phase totals approximately 425,000 square feet of retail/entertainment space with an investment of $330 million. Upon completion of the second phase (in 2009), the $850 million district will also contain 1,500 residential units and approximately one million square feet of office space.

http://www.visitkc.com/mediaroom/whats_ ... ?NewsID=20.

That $330M total (to my knowledge) doesn’t include The H&R Block HQ ($138M - roughly ½ million ft^2 of office space within P&L), Sprint Center ($275M), downtown movie theater ($25M) and College basketball Experience/museum ($20M).
Plans adjacent to P&L include a half art deco / half new build 1000 room “convention hotel” and an approved downtown street car (with a stop on P&L’s backdoor @ 14th and Main). While both are predominately for convention and business travelers, feasibility it can be attributed to P&L’s ‘success’ to some degree.

StL2003 wrote:Given the current downtown residential market, the new-ness of the development, the location that even city detractors would think is cool, it really is unbelievable how much of a no-brainer having residential on this site is.

You’d think! Cordish made their lofty promises about future phases, got their funding , followed through on additional (speculative) residential or office, and (famously) over estimated tax receipts (leaving city to foot the bill). Throughout the downturn, DT-KC have seen consistent growth in the residential market, but it still wasn’t until last year that a $70M, 23-story, 250-unit residential tower was announced (hope to break ground “this fall”). The tower is to be located on an existing surface lot adjacent to Cosentino's grocery store (cattycorner from The Flying Saucer). I heard nothing of the other promised residential or office space.

goat314 wrote:Ballpark Village has more potential than Power and Light District for a few reasons.

I would agree with you from an urban standpoint… but Cordish hasn’t shown a good track record of placing a high priority on quality urban design, being a good neighbor, TOD, mixed-use development, racial sensitivity, following through with lofty promises, or on non-entertainment development. In addition to all the things you mentioned, my hope for a successful PBV’s also comes from Dewitts personal attention and city hall’s common sense (eh?). I think it will translate into meaningful development, eventually, despite (not because of Cordish). I guess my point is that, at the end of the day, with their track record of misinformation, out-and-out lies, false starts, and generally being a lousy corporate citizen, I only trust their promises when the steel is in the sky.

tbspqr wrote:

StL2003 wrote:Given the current downtown residential market, the new-ness of the development, the location that even city detractors would think is cool, it really is unbelievable how much of a no-brainer having residential on this site is.

You’d think! Cordish made their lofty promises about future phases, got their funding , followed through on additional (speculative) residential or office, and (famously) over estimated tax receipts (leaving city to foot the bill). Throughout the downturn, DT-KC have seen consistent growth in the residential market, but it still wasn’t until last year that a $70M, 23-story, 250-unit residential tower was announced (hope to break ground “this fall”). The tower is to be located on an existing surface lot adjacent to Cosentino's grocery store (cattycorner from The Flying Saucer). I heard nothing of the other promised residential or office space.

I believe Stl2003 was referencing STL's downtown residential market, not KC's.

I like the Power & Light District alright. They have (or did when I was there) a great gelatto place. However, I do agree that it's touristy. There doesn't seem to be much that's especially unique about it.

stlien wrote:I believe Stl2003 was referencing STL's downtown residential market, not KC's.

Residentially speaking, both DT-KC and DT-STL have been doing well for a decade or more, generating consistent and organic population growth. Comparing the two, empirically anyway, DT-STL is ahead in terms of rehab/loft developments but DT-KC is ahead in terms of new residential developments (mostly/all lowrises). KC is (obviously) in Missouri so the political climate and tax subsidies will be similar. Also, of all of the Cordish developments, I am most familiar with KC P&L.

The situations KC and STL are similar enough that I think its fair to look, apples to apples, at their track record with P&L and assume their approach here will be similar in process and outcome.
Stl2003 says "we can handle residential". Cordish is saying "Give us the entertainment district now. Trust us, we'll build a "village" on those empty blocks, which includes residential and office space ... once the market improves". Based on their dealings in KC: they got a tawdry faux-urban development with suburban oriented entertainment offerings of phase 1 ... but very little effort to move on to phase 2 (residential, office or even the most basic semblance of a neighborhood feel), I don't think BPV should expect anything different.

^The Matheny comment is spot on. Let's hope that happens.

I don't think Cordish has completed a project that includes residential since 2005 when they participated in the development of Riverside on the James in Richmond which included 122 condos. That project was a collaboration with the City of Richmond and Daniel Corp.

They have a residential proposal pending in KC for a 23 story apartment tower. Hopefully that signifies a new direction/trend for the company. Of course it would still be better if the Cards just brought in someone who actually specializes and has experience in residential mixed-use development.

The first phase includes the development of public event space known as the Live Plaza, as well as streets, parking and site infrastructure for the entire 10-acre site. The remaining pad-ready development sites will allow for future phases to be developed more quickly since the basic infrastructure will already be in place. http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stl/ba ... illage.jsp

Read: 6+ blocks of surface parking, the (worthless?) Busch II infield “gathering area”, Cardinals Museum, and the touted retractable-roof festival area (with restaurants and extra Busch seating).

roger wyoming II wrote: so what can we expect from Cordish moving forward at BPV?

First off, Cordish advertises “150 events a year” at their developments: probably 50 ‘headline' events a year along with numerous smaller events and the 82 Cards home games (billed as events). Events will consist of free concerts on the main stage or structured watch parties. As much as I rag on Cordish, these can actually be pretty decent for the admission price (free)… they are no-brainer headline grabbing events that draw people who would otherwise not come. KC examples include a country music-concert series, world cup watch-party, oldies/cover bands and celebrity DJs. The other nights of the year, it will probably be pretty dead.

Secondly, as facility managers they will try to keep the festival area ‘nice’ (and do a pretty good job imo)... their current rules: “no loitering; no weapons; no panhandling; no solicitation; no disorderly conduct; no bicycles or skateboards; no professional photography cameras; no backpacks. The following is not permitted under the dress code: sleeveless shirts on men; profanity on clothing; sweat pants or full sweat suits; bandanas; exposed undergarments on men; excessively long shirts”. In the evenings it will be 21+ in the festival area… during day kids are allowed. Who knows how this will work with the family friendly imagine of “cardinals nation”, their restaurant and the hall-of-fame. The original dress code at P&L was called racist as it didn’t allow: (vaguely) overly baggy clothing, sports jerseys, or athletic shorts.

I have no problem with phase 1 specifically, but I warn downtown-backers not to get their hopes up for mid/high rises, mixed-use or TOD friendly development. If Cordish does expand, it will be one 1-3 story tall suburban oriented ‘entertainment’ block at a time, homogeneous with phase 1. Only way I could ever see a mid/high rise would be a single tenant building like what Centene proposed or what H&R Block got in KC. Cordish seems hostile to speculative residential or office markets.

Is there room for more entertainment?

I think there is. A HUGE %age of their patrons will be exurban/suburban. These patrons probably don’t currently frequent Wash Ave so won’t be as much cannibalization as one might think. It is still a shame to see such prime real estate be wasted on something worthy of Mid Rivers Mall Road. I hope I am wrong.
Another strike against PBV getting developed quickly is the revenue generated by the surface parking. Proximity to the ballpark means people will park there no matter how much premium they charge; this will generate a substantial revenue stream, making it difficult to justify speculative development in a future phase.

Too bad Cards can't/won't call it a day with Cordish after Phase One

With Cordish continuing to managing the property, I don’t see this as being viable. I could be wrong but I think once you get Cordish as a company, for better or worse, you’re stuck with a cordish-style development.

^ I agree with everything you said. You summed up my thoughts on Ballpark Village- its likely future AND how it compares to P&L in Kansas City- very well.

Add to that all of the false starts and scaled-back plans, and it's hard to believe anything presented by Bill DeTwit III, Cordish, or even the city for that matter. Remember the millions of dollars in penalties the Cardinals were supposed to pay if the first phase wasn't ready by a certain date (which kept changing until the penalties went away for good)? DeTwit runs a top-notch baseball organization, but he's a lousy urban real estate developer.

I can see why their dress code was called racist. Not saying I agree that it is racist, but it does seem to mostly target the stereotypical dress for young black men (exposed boxers, long shirts, and bandanas).
I also don't see how well the sleeveless shirt thing would go over. I have seen men at games wear sleeveless shirts. Generally, I don't have any problem with that, as long as they're not those cut out shirts that show the whole chest from the side.
Hopefully the dress code at BPV will be looser than it has been in Kansas City, Louisville, and Cincinnati. It seems that it should be up to each tenant what their dress code is, especially since people will be just leaving a ball game where it's been 90+ degrees for 3 or more hours and one of the restaurants is a cowboy bar.

Well that's just stupid. Who uses a debit card for a $5 charge? Doesn't the business getting the money then get charged by the bank to use the card? Seems counterintuitive.

The more I read about Cordish the less and less I like them.

Apparently in Louisville, Cordish started handing out free t-shirts to men who showed up in sleeveless shirts. So, wouldn't it be cheaper just to allow sleeveless shirts?

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/0 ... dress.html

I don't get it.



On a side note, if the stereotype about Cardinal fans wearing wife beaters and Timberland boots is correct, they may not be allowed in BPV. Power & Light banned work boots as well. I would think that Cordish would have to lower the standards in BPV in order for this to work. Most people who are in Downtown St. Louis for a Cards game are not going to go home and change to be dressed up enough to meet standards like those at P & L.

I wish Cordish were as clever and creative in urban development as they are in discrimination.

stlcardsblues1989 wrote:Most people who are in Downtown St. Louis for a Cards game are not going to go home and change to be dressed up enough to meet standards like those at P & L.

I can’t see Cordish banning jerseys at PBV, but I doubt they’ll bend on the other rules. For a downtown-located suburban-oriented development like this, getting a reputation for having unsavory folks (whatever that may be) would be their death knell (lots of 'safer' destinations 'closer' etc). Union Station and City Centre got bad reputations and look what happened. From the standpoint of the Cordish business model, PBV has to perceived as ‘upscale’ and ‘safe’ to be successful, “cul-de-sac chic” if you will. It seems Cordish thinks the best way to do this is a dress code, a code of conduct and an admission charge. I’m not sure that their approach is the best (or most tactful), but the results can’t be argued with (look who frequents P&L and look who doesn’t). My vexation with that is that the lack of diversity diminishes any semblance of urbanity and magnifies the hyper-faux-urban feel that is already glaringly apparent.

P&L’s dress code isn’t Nazisticly enforced all the time; they seem to become more strict late at night and during events. They also had (have?) a few specific events where the dress code is relaxed, such as a concert sponsored by a radio station (rock/metal or rap etc.). ?Maybe a different dress-code on game days?

Plastic only rule probably simplifies/speeds up the bouncers (no need for change etc) and also minimizes thievery (by those bouncers). Their P&L policy:

"After 11pm on Fridays and Saturdays, patrons pay (via credit card only) a $10 fee that includes admission into KC Live! and two tickets valued at $5 each, good towards cover at any participating bar or restaurant in KC Live! On Saturdays, after midnight, patrons pay (via credit card only) a $15 dollar fee."

Cover charges and dress codes are getting me excited about this development. And the black asphalt being poured this very moment, that's exciting too.

Ballpark Village Progress

Courtesy of kielman316's Flickr Account

It's amazing how a 3 story building street facing building can go a long way in making a downtown feel more urban. I would rather our downtown feel up surface lots with mixed use buildings in the 5-10 story range than to have a few 20+ story buildings with a vast amount of empty lots.

Yea, that was like one of the initial renderings from the beginning.

goat314 wrote:Ballpark Village Progress

I can't wait until they put Purina, Ford, and Viagra billboards on top. That's gonna look super.

threeonefour wrote:

goat314 wrote:Ballpark Village Progress

I can't wait until they put Purina, Ford, and Viagra billboards on top. That's gonna look super.

In all honesty I think the advertisements and neon signage will actually make this area more interesting. I personally think St. Louis lacks neon, although we have been doing better in the last few years. I also think it will give a better impression of St. Louis to outsiders.