urbanSTL

So... Cordish is expected to announce 4 Light in KC by the end of the year. Design really far along (like, they're finalizing exterior artwork with main design complete). Why haven't we heard or seen anything on Two Cardinal Way yet? They also have more stuff on the way to KC and other markets where they're not currently active. Really makes you wonder if Cordish is dragging their feet or if it's the Cardinals. 

I’m thinking it might have to do with the mayor and her stance on tax incentives just my own theory. Eventually there’ll be a two and 3 cardinal way within the next 100 years


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^^ My two cents is on the fact that BPV has to make money for both Cordish and DeWitt so getting to a return of investment is much higher in St Louis then KC development.. Another way to think of it, capital is going to want its cut to finance construction and return, then Cordish (think 4 Light) and then you add DeWitt family mark up number three (2CW).   4 Light is probably in between Two Cardinal Way and rest of downtown STL in terms of 1801 Wash, Spruce St proposal, proposal across BPV & rehabs such as Broadway & Butler Building.   So 4 light being a tower is probably little more costly to build then the stick on platform or gut & rehab but easier to get off ground in KC due to less return on investment to justify capital expenditure.  

Complete utter speculation. on my part.  But since I went down the rabbit hole of speculation it is easy to see the DeWitt not being any real rush considering they make boatloads of money off Cards but don't have roots in St. Louis nor feel a need to speculate on behalf of the region let alone downtown..  
   

arch city wrote: ↑

May 27, 2022

chriss752 wrote: ↑

May 27, 2022

So... Cordish is expected to announce 4 Light in KC by the end of the year. They also have more stuff on the way to KC and other markets where they're not currently active. Really makes you wonder if Cordish is dragging their feet or if it's the Cardinals. 

Locally, it's Dewitt and only DeWitt. When he pulls the greenlight, Cordish makes it happen

 Agree its Dewitt. Rate of Return "needing to be higher" shouldn't be the issue. At this scale, projects have multiple partners frequently. Cordish has multiple equity partners (including Kushner Companies) on its KC projects.

OCW leased up, not sure what the rents are but I would assume they are good.
Must be the other hand at the table saying no (for now). Maybe he wants to wait and do a big tower?

Maybe DeWitt is trying to build all the remaining parcels at once and trying to find the right mix. I actually think 3 towers coming up at once would still be successful

I don't see 2CW getting announced before the Butler Brothers conversion is finished and we see how successful leasing is or is not. It's still hard telling how much demand there is to live in DTSTL but is trending in a good direction just slower than the rest of the Midwest. Also there had been many delays to break ground on 3 Light even tho it was guaranteed to rent much higher than the 1/2 Light or 1CW; they also have more equity and co developers they work with in KC that aren't pro sports teams so that helps, but I digress ground breakings can take some time in either setting.

Personally, I don’t see Butler Bros and 2CW as competing developments.

moorlander wrote: ↑

May 31, 2022

Personally, I don’t see Butler Bros and 2CW as competing developments.

I’d agree with this. They might have some overlap but I’m not sure it’s very much.

Considering other developers aren't waiting on Butler Brothers, with two new hotels and a new residential building recently revealed for the Wells Fargo campus area, I don't think Butler Brothers has much at all to do with Two Cardinal Way. And that's on top of the Jefferson Connector, 18th and Washington, and a few other residential conversions in the immediate area of Butler Brothers.  

We also just saw a return of the new-build development on Spruce, just a few blocks away from Ballpark Village. And the apartment conversion across the street from Busch is well under way.  

One Cardinal Way has been hugely successful. There's no question in my mind that there is high demand for more residential in this area of downtown; I just get the sense that the Cardinals want to go big with the remaining parcels and that they have a strong preference for more office space. 

I've also mentioned a few times in this thread that the Cardinals and MLB were just in a labor dispute with the players. That ended only three months ago. The owners can't argue they can't pay players more when they're planning multi-hundred million dollar developments across the street from their stadium.

I fully expect something is in the works. 

Someone should pose the scale/timeline question to Dewitt Jr., anyone here have press creds? I don't recall him addressing the topic since Nov.

I don't think that would help much - you'd probably get the same vague non-answer answer that was given last October.

it's not about competition it's about seeing how strong absorption rates are for DTSTL, which is still an unproven market. The two hotels on Jeff and Market make more sense than 2CW from an investment standpoint.

^ unproven market? It’s literally the fastest growing neighborhood in the city and one of the fastest 2 sq miles in the region % wise and raw number wise in the last census and the one before that. It has 90-95% occupancy rate for apartments

which project besides 1CW has had more than 300 apartments built in the last 5 years? how fast did it lease up? being the fastest growing neighborhood in a declining city is far from comforting from an investment standpoint and 90-95% is actually a little on the low side, comparable projects happening in DTLA with a 97% occupancy rate show delays still happen and thats in the hottest apartment market in the United States. 2CW will happen but if you think it will be announced this year you are kidding yourself; quite the contrary. 2CW more than likely would be moving rather quickly if it breaks ground by 2024... I would assume 2025/2026 sounds more realistic. I think most of us with experience are watching Butler Bros renovation, and the new construction on Spruce and Washington to see if the trend in absorption continues. remember most of us don't compare Downtown St. Louis to it's own region that's a defunct metric... how does DTSTL perform compared to other downtowns in the Midwest and around the Nation?

I don’t think you’re getting it Goat. Hi rise residential is simply a different market, a different clientele, and price point. And the BPV location is superior to BBros. Plus 95% occupancy is fantastic.

Manhattan Occupancy rate is 90%
Downtown Chicago is 94.5%


I think we’re doing just fine

I dont get the significance of 300 units,  are two 300 unit buildings somehow better than 5 150 unit buildings? 

Pull out your bingo cards when the Kansas City people start commenting on a St. Louis message board. 

"Declining City" and "KC" have already been called. 

RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑

Jun 01, 2022

Pull out your bingo cards when the Kansas City people start commenting on a St. Louis message board. 

"Declining City" and "KC" have already been called. 

I certainly welcome KC posters and their contributions, it's refreshing to read outsiders opinion of our beloved city.  But the constant comparisons of KC and STL made by these posters tend to just create pissing matches with STL posters and it's a bit trollish, no doubt.

I'll say this, the poster that we are referring to started a thread on KCRag asking if KC had an inferiority complex with respect to STL. Well the constant KC vs STL posts on a STL centric board would certainly be a sign of that affliction!

Back on topic, isn't OCW 100% leased? 

Not 100% but full occupancy last I looked. Healthy rents too

moorlander wrote: ↑

Jun 01, 2022

I don’t think you’re getting it Goat. Hi rise residential is simply a different market, a different clientele, and price point. And the BPV location is superior to BBros. Plus 95% occupancy is fantastic.

Respectfully, I'm the only person that should be referred to as  only Goat on this forum lol. 

Btw, the Katie’s news means you can officially stick a fork in Davio’s coming to BPV. Too bad. DT needs a new fine dining establishment after the exodus that has occurred the last 10 years

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

Jun 14, 2022

Btw, the Katie’s news means you can officially stick a fork in Davio’s coming to BPV. Too bad. DT needs a new fine dining establishment after the exodus that has occurred the last 10 years

^ you can get a $50 steak at Farinas Kitchen and Bar (and its pretty good) only down side for the time being is that they are still working on getting a liquor license. 

Blood and Sand offers fine dining and Cinder 

JFC, DB. I didn’t say there wasn’t fine dining left DT. You forgot to name Carmines and Ruth Chris and Al’s.

Nevertheless, there are fewer options than there once was.

Tony’s is gone
Kemoll’s is gone
American Place is gone
Gio’s is gone
Prime 1000 is gone
The one atop the Millenium is gone