How much do you want to bet they did some back channeling to get that story written?
Back channeling? What was in the story that lead you to that conclusion?chaifetz10 wrote:How much do you want to bet they did some back channeling to get that story written?
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Just how they operate with the media. They have a lot of leverage with the PD and even news stations... I've personally seen them contact media outlets and ask that they don't run a story or try to downplay it. The PR firm they use is also very good about this.
No doubt there's been some cannibalization of some businesses, but only the strong survive.
The uptick in downtown crime may have scared some people too. This cannot be denied, but seriously, Mike Shannon's was somewhat outdated - very non-millennial. Even his name is synonymous with old school.
Old school is not bad, but Mike Shannon and Ozzie Smith, as good of guys they are, represent the old school.
Old can be stuffy. Harry's (old), Shannon's (old), Joe Bucks (closed all locations - not just downtown), Prime 1000 (probably a victim of too many steak houses downtown) and the Washington Avenue drop off. Keep in mind too that restaurants have either opened or upgraded in the newly renovated hotels too.
What about Tony's? What about 360? What about Flying Saucer? Hard Rock? Landry's? etc. etc. etc. They're open. It's all in the concept.
Below are charts from The Show-Me Institute.
Source
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The uptick in downtown crime may have scared some people too. This cannot be denied, but seriously, Mike Shannon's was somewhat outdated - very non-millennial. Even his name is synonymous with old school.
Old school is not bad, but Mike Shannon and Ozzie Smith, as good of guys they are, represent the old school.
Old can be stuffy. Harry's (old), Shannon's (old), Joe Bucks (closed all locations - not just downtown), Prime 1000 (probably a victim of too many steak houses downtown) and the Washington Avenue drop off. Keep in mind too that restaurants have either opened or upgraded in the newly renovated hotels too.
What about Tony's? What about 360? What about Flying Saucer? Hard Rock? Landry's? etc. etc. etc. They're open. It's all in the concept.
Below are charts from The Show-Me Institute.
Source
King of surprising that 63101 and 63102 added less than one additional restaurant per year, combined, during basically the entirety of the Downtown renaissance (up to 2013). Especially considering Lumiere opened during that time, adding 5 in one shot.
Of course, with BPV the issue isn't really full service restaurants as it is drinking establishments. I don't think it was the fine dining at Drunken Fish, Cardinals Nation, and Budweiser Brewhouse that put the nail in the coffin for Harry's, J. Buck's, The Dubliner, or even Mike Shannon's. It was that all important liquor revenue that comes from hoards of sports fans sloshing down drinks on game day, which Fox Sports Live, PBR, Budweiser Brewhouse, and Cordish in general have down to a subsidized science.
Of course, with BPV the issue isn't really full service restaurants as it is drinking establishments. I don't think it was the fine dining at Drunken Fish, Cardinals Nation, and Budweiser Brewhouse that put the nail in the coffin for Harry's, J. Buck's, The Dubliner, or even Mike Shannon's. It was that all important liquor revenue that comes from hoards of sports fans sloshing down drinks on game day, which Fox Sports Live, PBR, Budweiser Brewhouse, and Cordish in general have down to a subsidized science.
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The Landing needs to reinvent itself once the Arch grounds are finished. It hasn't been unique in quite some time.dweebe wrote:Sundeckers closed for good...again.
I realize it would take someone to really devote time and energy to organize such a thing...and a lot of commitment from a lot of different people, but the Landing would be an awesome area for a craft beer district. You've already got Morgan Street Brewery there (while they aren't really what I'd consider a true micro brewery)...but if you added in Schlafly, 4 Hands, Urban Chestnut, Perennial, etc...that would be really cool. Tough it's centered around drinking I think it's a bit different than a typical club scene or BPV/Wash Ave.
I love this idea think this would be great and I would frequent often as I'm sure others would too. It would be very tough though because first of all I don't think anyone has suggested this and second of all it would require a lot of commitment from the breweries.NickOnDelor wrote:The Landing needs to reinvent itself once the Arch grounds are finished. It hasn't been unique in quite some time.dweebe wrote:Sundeckers closed for good...again.
I realize it would take someone to really devote time and energy to organize such a thing...and a lot of commitment from a lot of different people, but the Landing would be an awesome area for a craft beer district. You've already got Morgan Street Brewery there (while they aren't really what I'd consider a true micro brewery)...but if you added in Schlafly, 4 Hands, Urban Chestnut, Perennial, etc...that would be really cool. Tough it's centered around drinking I think it's a bit different than a typical club scene or BPV/Wash Ave.
I'd love to see it become more of a residential neighborhood. Wash. Ave., BPV, soon Union Station, City Museum, Peabody, etc.... (Even the BB's, Broadway Oyster, Beale on Broadway, Old Rock House mini-district is a bigger draw for music than The Landing. Basically there are a lot of bigger draws for visitors who are Downtown for nightlife or otherwise. Lumiere obviously attracts visitors, but they're more or less here for one purpose and siloed within the casino/hotel complex.
It might not be as lively, and would be hard on the remaining drinking/nightlife establishments, but I think the Landing needs to completely pivot away from the quasi-Beale/Bourbon Street vibe (which they also compete with the Soulard bars for) and retrench as a charming historic residential area adjacent to an incredible world-class park with fantastic transit connectivity. Something like a more dense Lafayette Square - a bit sleepy, but stable and endearing. Of course, the huge adjacent casino may hinder more than help such an attempt. But the continued investments of GRG between the Arch Grounds and points north will help.
It might not be as lively, and would be hard on the remaining drinking/nightlife establishments, but I think the Landing needs to completely pivot away from the quasi-Beale/Bourbon Street vibe (which they also compete with the Soulard bars for) and retrench as a charming historic residential area adjacent to an incredible world-class park with fantastic transit connectivity. Something like a more dense Lafayette Square - a bit sleepy, but stable and endearing. Of course, the huge adjacent casino may hinder more than help such an attempt. But the continued investments of GRG between the Arch Grounds and points north will help.
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Exactly...something I completely dreamed up. If I had the resources and time I'd love to be the type of person to try and organize something like that. But it's going to take someone that has the ability to make something like that work, someone in the mold of a Joe Edwards type of guy. I'm just a common folk with an idea haha.DowntownNick wrote:I love this idea think this would be great and I would frequent often as I'm sure others would too. It would be very tough though because first of all I don't think anyone has suggested this and second of all it would require a lot of commitment from the breweries.NickOnDelor wrote:The Landing needs to reinvent itself once the Arch grounds are finished. It hasn't been unique in quite some time.dweebe wrote:Sundeckers closed for good...again.
I realize it would take someone to really devote time and energy to organize such a thing...and a lot of commitment from a lot of different people, but the Landing would be an awesome area for a craft beer district. You've already got Morgan Street Brewery there (while they aren't really what I'd consider a true micro brewery)...but if you added in Schlafly, 4 Hands, Urban Chestnut, Perennial, etc...that would be really cool. Tough it's centered around drinking I think it's a bit different than a typical club scene or BPV/Wash Ave.
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The Red Wings development looks like it actually is taking the idea of a village to heart and rubbing it in Cordish/Cards faces.
Area around new Red Wings arena teems with planned projects
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20 ... ium=social
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In the area immediately around the arena billed as Woodward Square, Olympia is building about 160,000 square feet of office space. Offices for the Red Wings and Olympia Entertainment, the venue management arm of team owners Mike and Marian Ilitch's business holdings, are expected to take about 100,000 square feet of that.
An additional 55,000 square feet of retail space, plus a 350- to 400-room upscale hotel and more than 120 multifamily units, will be in the area bounded by Woodward and Cass avenues to the east and west and Sproat Street and the Fisher Freeway service drive to the north and south.
Total investment in the Woodward Square area — one of five neighborhoods in the area Olympia intends to rehabilitate as part of its broader The District Detroit plan — is now $1.2 billion, of which 75 percent is (or will be) private spending, according to Olympia executives.
When the district was publicly unveiled 18 months ago, the investment estimate was $650 million, including $450 million in public-private spending on the arena.
The 20,000-seat venue is scheduled to open by September 2017 and its latest cost estimate is $627.5 million....
It's inconceivable to me that nothing has been announced by now for mixed-use at Ballpark Village... we almost have a new president elected after a two-term president was in office who took over from a prior president who was in office when the new Busch was built and we have absolutely nothing no mixed-use!
Area around new Red Wings arena teems with planned projects
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20 ... ium=social
In the area immediately around the arena billed as Woodward Square, Olympia is building about 160,000 square feet of office space. Offices for the Red Wings and Olympia Entertainment, the venue management arm of team owners Mike and Marian Ilitch's business holdings, are expected to take about 100,000 square feet of that.
An additional 55,000 square feet of retail space, plus a 350- to 400-room upscale hotel and more than 120 multifamily units, will be in the area bounded by Woodward and Cass avenues to the east and west and Sproat Street and the Fisher Freeway service drive to the north and south.
Total investment in the Woodward Square area — one of five neighborhoods in the area Olympia intends to rehabilitate as part of its broader The District Detroit plan — is now $1.2 billion, of which 75 percent is (or will be) private spending, according to Olympia executives.
When the district was publicly unveiled 18 months ago, the investment estimate was $650 million, including $450 million in public-private spending on the arena.
The 20,000-seat venue is scheduled to open by September 2017 and its latest cost estimate is $627.5 million....
It's inconceivable to me that nothing has been announced by now for mixed-use at Ballpark Village... we almost have a new president elected after a two-term president was in office who took over from a prior president who was in office when the new Busch was built and we have absolutely nothing no mixed-use!
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I've tried asking around for what's going on, but all I'm getting is radio silence from my connections with Cordish.
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Spoilers:chaifetz10 wrote:I've tried asking around for what's going on, but all I'm getting is radio silence from my connections with Cordish.
Absolutely nothing is going on
The Cardinals/Cordish are perfectly content to print money with the parking lot and surrounding operation they've got going on now.
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I believe it. It's even more frustrating for me as I know even just a year or two ago they had legitimate plans for more.
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Oh, they've always had "legitimate" plans for more, I'm sure.chaifetz10 wrote:I believe it. It's even more frustrating for me as I know even just a year or two ago they had legitimate plans for more.
I just knew as soon as they referred to the current situation as "Phase One" that it was all complete baloney.
What we see is what we get, people.
^I find that extraordinarily unlikely.
That doesn't mean I'm remotely satisfied with what we have or the pace of development. I'm sure not.
But they'll build some other stuff. Just have no idea when.
That doesn't mean I'm remotely satisfied with what we have or the pace of development. I'm sure not.
But they'll build some other stuff. Just have no idea when.
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I think them selling it off for someone else to build is far more likely (but, again, like you said, a question of "when"?). Probably once people get burnt out on the BPV scene and numbers start dwindling a little bit as people flock to the next "big nightlife thing" in the region, and they're sure they've squeezed every drop of positive ROI on the current situation that they could possibly get, they'll sell off the parking lot to another developer with some form of a mixed-use plan.jstriebel wrote:^I find that extraordinarily unlikely.
That doesn't mean I'm remotely satisfied with what we have or the pace of development. I'm sure not.
But they'll build some other stuff. Just have no idea when.
The main issue, as has been retread ad-nauseum here, is that the city never guaranteed the bonds the way Kansas City did. I don't think Cordish is interested in doing business the way St. Louis would prefer that they do. And like I said, they're probably making money hand-over-fist in the current setup, with substantially lower overhead.
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This thread is making me ANGRY and MAKING ME USE ALL CAPS!!!
I think I'll start a PAC called Saint Louis Citizens Against Developers Sitting on the Sidelines.
I think I'll start a PAC called Saint Louis Citizens Against Developers Sitting on the Sidelines.
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We were led to believe we'd be getting condos/apartments, office buildings, retail, restaurants and bars, and all we wound up getting from this whole ordeal is a medium-sized hoosier-magnet chain-bar mall. Partially-government-subsidized, meanwhile putting other restaurants and bars out of business.
Couldn't dream up a more St. Louis story if I tried
Couldn't dream up a more St. Louis story if I tried
I love how Budweiser Brew House is on Taphunter (draft listings site), so you can see exactly how badly they're ripping people off.
http://www.taphunter.com/location/Budwe ... 9945764864
Everything is like $2.50-$3 more per pint than at the Flying Saucer.
http://www.taphunter.com/location/Flyin ... 6276632576
It really is true that there's a sucker born every minute.
http://www.taphunter.com/location/Budwe ... 9945764864
Everything is like $2.50-$3 more per pint than at the Flying Saucer.
http://www.taphunter.com/location/Flyin ... 6276632576
It really is true that there's a sucker born every minute.
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I'm not 100% sure on the financing for the Cordish towers in KC, but the City isn't backing bonds for the Lights like they do for Power & Light. They are still handing out a lot of subsidy on them though, and I think it may be building a parking structure as part of the deal. Anyway, if the right project came about here I'd hope that the City would be open to a bit more subsidy than normal in the form of loans or direct investment in addition to the TIF and what not already approved.Mound City wrote: The main issue, as has been retread ad-nauseum here, is that the city never guaranteed the bonds the way Kansas City did. I don't think Cordish is interested in doing business the way St. Louis would prefer that they do.
btw, does anyone know the contractual relationship Cards have with Cordish? If Cordish can be let loose on the remaining property then maybe Cards can find a more inclined development partner.
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Why do you assume the Cardinals are motivated to do this?roger wyoming II wrote:If Cordish can be let loose on the remaining property then maybe Cards can find a more inclined development partner.
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^ I'm not sure that they are... city leaders need to get on their case hard. But also I'm not convinced they are making hand over fist on the parking lots that are largely empty most of the time; I'd like to think they can see that a successful mixed-use development would generate even more revenue for them.