Great to see they're already teeing up the "need" for more parking storyline before even having a solid proposal: "There will also NEED to be some parking added...."
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^That they don't control. They want to monopolize as much of the money in that area as possible. Parking included.
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^ my understanding is that they are building a missile system that will destroy Wheelhouse and Flying Saucer.
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When it opened back in 2014, there were a few conversations about Flying Saucer eventually moving into the BPV development footprint. Cordish and FS have worked together in other developments... I'm sure things have probably changed since then, but wouldn't surprise me one bit to see FS eventually making the move over to BPV if/when the next phase happens.
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I think places like Harry's and Mile 277 are using BPV as a convenient culprit for their demise. Even Shannon's to some degree.
The truth of the matter is that bars and restaurants go in and out of business frequently. Peoples taste changes and what's popular for a while stops being popular later. Harry's has Sybergs across the street, why aren't they closing if BPV is the reason for poor sales? Mile 277 in Sunset Hills is competing with BPV? Really? I wonder how Helen Fitzgeralds is staying alive with that competition...
Some of these places that are failing stuck around for so long because they options/competition was limited. Many of these places I frequented in my mid twenties...I'm 31 now and as I think back to these places I remember them being more of the type of place we might go to once in a while as a change of scene but none of them as a normal hangout because they either lacked an entertaining aspect or were expensive.
The truth of the matter is that bars and restaurants go in and out of business frequently. Peoples taste changes and what's popular for a while stops being popular later. Harry's has Sybergs across the street, why aren't they closing if BPV is the reason for poor sales? Mile 277 in Sunset Hills is competing with BPV? Really? I wonder how Helen Fitzgeralds is staying alive with that competition...
Some of these places that are failing stuck around for so long because they options/competition was limited. Many of these places I frequented in my mid twenties...I'm 31 now and as I think back to these places I remember them being more of the type of place we might go to once in a while as a change of scene but none of them as a normal hangout because they either lacked an entertaining aspect or were expensive.
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^ yeah, Gary. after all the football season just ended and a whole week has passed since the NFL made their decision. plenty of time for the economics to play out. 
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^ no, it's true! e.g. upon hearing of the NFL decision Gerard Craft immediately sent all the workers setting up Porano home and he won't be opening the place up. Same thing across the street with Mike Johnson and Sugarfire. In even sadder news, Anthony Ellerson, Jr. took off his apron and threw in the towel into the Kitchen Sink and has been seen wandering around Convention Plaza like a crawfish.
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i hadn't hear about all of that!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo..............!!!!!
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Isn't Mile 277 a biker bar? How are they competing with BPV?
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Guessing maybe the PBR Bar in BPV attracts the same crowd? Or the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. One of the two.MarkHaversham wrote:Isn't Mile 277 a biker bar? How are they competing with BPV?
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BPV has had some bike nights, but I don't see that being THE reason why Mile 277 would close. Hell, some of the staff from PBR came from Mile 277 and I believe some even worked at both still. Did PBR take some business away from Mile 277, probably. But not enough to be the entire reason its closing.
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I wonder, what are there more of: bars in BPV, or bars that have closed because of BPV?
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^ interesting question and one we'll never know the real answer to.
I do wish we had more data on overall patronage, one way I think would be downtown restaurant tax receipts but I don't know if the city has that kind of info available even to alders.
I do wish we had more data on overall patronage, one way I think would be downtown restaurant tax receipts but I don't know if the city has that kind of info available even to alders.
I can't wait for something in Chesterfield Valley close and them blame BPV.
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^ where's the furthest reaches of the 50,000 watts of KMOX?
We're having similar discussions on two forms with Shannon's, but while I think obviously BPV is hurting some other businesses downtown that it's also attracting new customers as well. Anecdotally speaking, I know quite a few people who frequent BPV who otherwise wouldn't be downtown nearly as much. It's a different experience from what you can get on Main Street *insert suburb*, whereas most other bars are pretty similar to each other.
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^ very true.... I just think the generously subsidized space should have been allowed to proceed without the promised residential/office mixed use. Had Centene or similar gone in, all those workers could have had an awful lot of expense accounted steaks at Shannon's.
Nadoz Cafe in Chesterfield is closing! OMG, it's everywhere!dweebe wrote:I can't wait for something in Chesterfield Valley close and them blame BPV.
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Not meant to be demeaning, but I do think that BPV is set up to corner the "out state" MO and so. IL patrons. I really enjoyed the AB portion of the project, but the complete lack of character in the rest of the "village" was very off-putting to me. Local joints should be able to compete toe to toe with BPV for any customers who have spent any significant time in a city.
Now the one caveat is obviously the fact that they have to be good at running a business.
Now the one caveat is obviously the fact that they have to be good at running a business.
When I was home I went to the Cardinals store at Busch, had some beers and some nachos at Cardinals Nation, and then went through the Cardinals Hall of Fame. Yeah, it was a touristy thing to do, but sometimes that's fun! I'm a huge Cardinals fan, so I love doing Cardinals things - like 99% of people in MO/So. IL. That's my attraction to BPV: for that game day atmosphere and because it's the Cardinals. Even if the Cards aren't playing, it's a great place to watch the Blues, football, whatever.
I had a buddy who wanted me to go to BPV for New Year's and apparently they had a big crowd ($75 ticket). I guess for some people that's a draw, but if I was going out for a night on the town with no sports involved I think I would prefer Wash Ave., the Landing (is it still alive?), or CWE. But for me, old buildings, history, urbanity, etc. have the ability to boost an experience because I love that stuff and am constantly aware of it. Some people aren't. And that's perfectly fine. BPV is marketed to them. And if a business that caters to the same crowd suffers as a result, well that sucks but that's business.
After my Cardinals pilgrimage I met up with the same New Year's buddy at 360. He goes to BPV all the time and loves it, and he lives downtown and is a huge city booster (he works in the county and constantly rants about businesses needing to move downtown). We were walking back to my car to head to Soulard and were going past BPV and he was raving about it. I pulled out my phone and said, "Do you remember what it was supposed to be in the first place?" He didn't. I showed him the 2006 renderings and he said, "Dammit. Thanks for ruining it for me."
This post is all over the place, so to summarize. Do I enjoy BPV? Yes. Do I think it's pathetic compared to what we were promised? Yes. Do I think that the current disappointment can be reversed with the announcement of future phases that include residential and business? Again, yes.
I had a buddy who wanted me to go to BPV for New Year's and apparently they had a big crowd ($75 ticket). I guess for some people that's a draw, but if I was going out for a night on the town with no sports involved I think I would prefer Wash Ave., the Landing (is it still alive?), or CWE. But for me, old buildings, history, urbanity, etc. have the ability to boost an experience because I love that stuff and am constantly aware of it. Some people aren't. And that's perfectly fine. BPV is marketed to them. And if a business that caters to the same crowd suffers as a result, well that sucks but that's business.
After my Cardinals pilgrimage I met up with the same New Year's buddy at 360. He goes to BPV all the time and loves it, and he lives downtown and is a huge city booster (he works in the county and constantly rants about businesses needing to move downtown). We were walking back to my car to head to Soulard and were going past BPV and he was raving about it. I pulled out my phone and said, "Do you remember what it was supposed to be in the first place?" He didn't. I showed him the 2006 renderings and he said, "Dammit. Thanks for ruining it for me."
This post is all over the place, so to summarize. Do I enjoy BPV? Yes. Do I think it's pathetic compared to what we were promised? Yes. Do I think that the current disappointment can be reversed with the announcement of future phases that include residential and business? Again, yes.
The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with he current building portion of Ballpark Village in and of itself. Like Shimmy, I'll enjoy it as a Cardinals fan sometimes, but probably neglect it as a place to spend a night out. But it's fine, and it appeals to a plot of people.
But we're not operating in a vacuum, we're operating in a city, and for BPV to be successful WITHOUT negatively impacting other great places in the area, it had to draw in more people. I'm sure it has to some extent; I'm sure it's gotten people who only came downtown for the ballgame to come earlier and/or stay later. But by and large the development isn't bringing a lot more people downtown, and it won't until it offers office and residential.
I think there is going to be a time when we get that, but for how ever many years it takes until that happens, it's doing a bit of a disservice to the rest of downtown. I might just call it competition if it wasn't subsidized, but it is. So the onus really should be on them to add the residential and office ASAP.
But we're not operating in a vacuum, we're operating in a city, and for BPV to be successful WITHOUT negatively impacting other great places in the area, it had to draw in more people. I'm sure it has to some extent; I'm sure it's gotten people who only came downtown for the ballgame to come earlier and/or stay later. But by and large the development isn't bringing a lot more people downtown, and it won't until it offers office and residential.
I think there is going to be a time when we get that, but for how ever many years it takes until that happens, it's doing a bit of a disservice to the rest of downtown. I might just call it competition if it wasn't subsidized, but it is. So the onus really should be on them to add the residential and office ASAP.
Timely article from the Post-Dispatch:
"Some dispute ‘Ballpark Village effect’ on St. Louis restaurant closings"
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... cb053.html
"Some dispute ‘Ballpark Village effect’ on St. Louis restaurant closings"
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... cb053.html