^Why's that? Don't they both accomplish the same goal of increasing Downtown residents?
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You always want a healthy mix of owners in any community. Owners generally take better care of their property and are significantly more invested in their community. When times get tough renters simply move.
Depends on whose perspective you're looking from. The City has a goal of increasing residents, Cordish has a goal of increasing their profits.wabash wrote:^Why's that? Don't they both accomplish the same goal of increasing Downtown residents?
The premium you can put on these units as condos far exceeds the premium they would get as rentals.
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As condos, these become similar to puchasing a corporate box... stadium-view party pad where the well-heeled can entertain their friends during games. Those will command a very high price and will sell quite well.
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So with the BB King's coming to Grand Center, the thought naturally occurs if it would have been better going downtown in the vicinity of the new Blues Museum. But then it also comes to mind to ask if a major new venue north of Market would hurt existing establishments even further.dweebe wrote:Was recently at an event with a number of bar/restaurant industry people. Talking with some old friends, don't be surprised if this winter is a bloody one for downtown, Landing and Soulard businesses with Ballpark Village to blame. I won't name names but a few significant places won't make it through the winter.
I'm pretty sure reinvigorating the American Theater as a frequently-used music/performance venue would be a plus for everyone, but I'm not so sure about something similar to BPV (but smaller of course) in that it is intended to retain/imprison the customer for the night. Would a major attraction like BB King's or House of Blues where you can listen to music and eat/drink in separate spaces likely be a plus for all or just draw away business from others even further? Downtown definitely needs more energy downtown, but hopefully whatever comes tends to lift all boats.
I think there's adjustments that could be made in perfecting where each establishment goes, but ultimately I think downtown is just about maxed out as an entertainment district. Not forever, but for where it stands in other sectors.
Business (office type), residential, and retail need to catch up before it can really expand much further as an entertainment district. I don't mean that out of preference, I think it's a logistics thing. I think if we're going to grow the amount of people downtown for entertainment, the only real way left to do it is by growing the amount of people there in general, and that's through these other things.
That's my quick, amateur read on it anyways.
Business (office type), residential, and retail need to catch up before it can really expand much further as an entertainment district. I don't mean that out of preference, I think it's a logistics thing. I think if we're going to grow the amount of people downtown for entertainment, the only real way left to do it is by growing the amount of people there in general, and that's through these other things.
That's my quick, amateur read on it anyways.
I agree with everything you said. And would only add that increased transit infrastructure could contribute to Downtown as an entertainment district along with office jobs, residential, and retail. The more people can easily get downtown without having to get behind the wheel, the more the nightlife will thrive.jstriebel wrote:That's my quick, amateur read on it anyways.
\roger wyoming II wrote:Would a major attraction like BB King's or House of Blues where you can listen to music and eat/drink in separate spaces likely be a plus for all or just draw away business from others even further?
Interesting question. I think with BPV, and lets not forget Lumiere, you have two somewhat isolated and self-contained entertainment centers. I think if either of them were fronting Wash Ave. there'd be more synergy and even though they're pretty self-contained they would do more to "lift all ships." Maybe not. Maybe having BPV on Wash. Ave. would have really sunk the dagger in. But, I think if you had one bustling corridor it would be healthier than two or three relatively separate nodes of entertainment activity.
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ouch! I'm a bit more optimistic.... I think a large part of the issue is that things just have gotten kind of stale downtown with few acclaimed openings in the past few years; throw in the new BPV and that was bound to take a toll on established businesses north of Market. But I can easily see a combination of a few talked-about openings downtown plus existing establishments freshening up a bit reclaiming some of the business lost to BPV and bringing in additional customers.jstriebel wrote:I think there's adjustments that could be made in perfecting where each establishment goes, but ultimately I think downtown is just about maxed out as an entertainment district. Not forever, but for where it stands in other sectors.
Business (office type), residential, and retail need to catch up before it can really expand much further as an entertainment district. I don't mean that out of preference, I think it's a logistics thing. I think if we're going to grow the amount of people downtown for entertainment, the only real way left to do it is by growing the amount of people there in general, and that's through these other things.
That's my quick, amateur read on it anyways.
We also have good headwinds in that not only is the downtown population itself continuing to grow slowly but steadily, but the burgeoning Central Corridor nabes are bringing even more young people to the potential customer base. Further, the tourism/convention markets also are on an uptick.
What I'd like to see downtown is a couple of highly-touted restaurants opening in spots like the Tower OPOP and old Mosaic space as well as a successful revamp of the American Theater as a live music venue to bring back some oomph. I also think a large venue that is differentiated from the BPV scene could be successful and lend a lot of excitement... possibly a big craft beer hall/garden or something like this Punch Bowl Social that opened in Detroit (as the first Midwest location):
PBS looks to be kind of a Flamingo Bowl/gastro-pub/live music venue for the hipster crowd.
http://punchbowlsocial.com/detroit/our-story-det/
Anyway, I think a couple new exciting establishments can go a long way in boosting the entertainment level downtown... the Landing may face more of a challenge though.
^^ Wabash, I agree getting more transit would be a boost for all.... streetcar or high-quality BRT down the Central Corridor linking the several entertainment districts should be part of that.
As for BPV location, I think if it were close to Washington, say where the parking lots are b/w Lucas and Convention behind the lofts would have been much better for Wash Ave establishments.
As for BPV location, I think if it were close to Washington, say where the parking lots are b/w Lucas and Convention behind the lofts would have been much better for Wash Ave establishments.
I didn't mean to come off dismissive or pessimistic. I'm optimistic about downtown, still too. I think you make some good points.roger wyoming II wrote:ouch! I'm a bit more optimistic....
I just think the biggest impact will be when there's another large infusion of residents and/or business residents.
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who knows maybe we're all in for a big surprise sooner rather than later!
I have to agree. There's a decent number of bars/restaurants to go to downtown, but very few of them are busy outside Friday/Saturday (and even on weekends, a lot of them are dead, especially during times when students have winter break, etc.), and during Cardinals/Rams games. Most of them close way to early for people like me. I get hungry for dinner at like 9-10pm. But I don't blame them, because there's just nobody patronizing them on a regular basis outside of sporting events and college party weekends. It's hard to have a place survive year-round on special events alone. Get more year-round residents to fill in some of the down-time between games and during the week. And a lot of the best lunch spots (Mr. Curry's, Chilli Mac's, etc.) close after 2pm so they're not even open for dinner.jstriebel wrote:I think there's adjustments that could be made in perfecting where each establishment goes, but ultimately I think downtown is just about maxed out as an entertainment district. Not forever, but for where it stands in other sectors.
Business (office type), residential, and retail need to catch up before it can really expand much further as an entertainment district. I don't mean that out of preference, I think it's a logistics thing. I think if we're going to grow the amount of people downtown for entertainment, the only real way left to do it is by growing the amount of people there in general, and that's through these other things.
That's my quick, amateur read on it anyways.
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^ I agree that we'll need more and more downtown residents to make a big dent in the nightlife scene (and more office workers for after-work drinks, etc. wouldn't hurt) but what I'm getting at is I believe there is room for more "destination" establishments that would draw people from a wide area. The popularity of nightlife areas ebb and flow depending upon how well they keep up with the times but people will travel for where the action is at... BPV has proven that and I think there is room for more, especially for a mini-revival along WashAve.
I think there certainly is room for a couple innovative restaurants that could replicate the success that Mosaic had, and something like B.B. King's, House of Blues, Punch Club Social, a well-managed American Theater, etc. would do well. A few key nightlife openings will bring some attention back to the area and hopefully float all boats, and I also think progress on such things as the Blues Museum, Arcade-Wright, Arch grounds revival, Union Station, etc. will only enhance the potential.
I think there certainly is room for a couple innovative restaurants that could replicate the success that Mosaic had, and something like B.B. King's, House of Blues, Punch Club Social, a well-managed American Theater, etc. would do well. A few key nightlife openings will bring some attention back to the area and hopefully float all boats, and I also think progress on such things as the Blues Museum, Arcade-Wright, Arch grounds revival, Union Station, etc. will only enhance the potential.
It's nice that these days the dialogue is: "Why isn't Downtown a thriving entertainment and retail center that is busy every night and day of the week? Is it because the growth rate isn't high enough or that the popular areas are competing with each other too much?" Instead of 10-15 years ago "Why are all of these beautiful buildings empty and storefronts boarded up except for Famous-Barr, a moribund St. Louis Centre Mall, Gus's Fashions, and a few rock clubs?"
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St. Louis is a slow/no growth region right now. Without an increase in population, jobs, or tourism any new retail growth in one area will come at the expense of another.
At some point we do need to look at how far Downtown has come since 1995, even if at times it's two steps forward and one step back.
At some point we do need to look at how far Downtown has come since 1995, even if at times it's two steps forward and one step back.
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^ but the good news is we are growing and the Central Corridor is sort of booming.... I expect we'll see Wash Ave rediscover its mojo within the next year or so.
This isn't a novel thought, but something that I was thinking about while getting a haircut today. Something brought to my attention how far downtown residents have to go for something like Target.
It's brought up all the time that downtown lacks retail and there is no 24-hr pharmacy or things like that. But I guess I never really thought about how downtown actually isn't central to many daily needs at all. On the contrary, it's on the far end.
If you want you want to split the difference between everything, you end up in the CWE or the Tower Grove area or something like that (there's plenty of others, not trying to single any out). But if you live in downtown, you have to be willing to drive out to Southwest city or the burbs for a lot of your needs (well, not needs, but common wants). It's our "CBD" supposedly, but it really takes some sacrifice to live there.
And my point isn't to disparage downtown living at all. I'm just thinking about how something like the Ikea and the eventual midtown station, while not actually being downtown, can further boost the attraction of living downtown. Suddenly it's not a 15-20 minute drive southwest or a 20-25 minute or so drive to Brentwood. It's just "down the road". Even better, it will be transit accessible.
That's a lot of words for a relatively simple thought, but it just got me thinking about how even though a lot of the development spur has moved away from downtown, it is still close enough to maybe help it cycle more development (and residents) back to downtown.
It's brought up all the time that downtown lacks retail and there is no 24-hr pharmacy or things like that. But I guess I never really thought about how downtown actually isn't central to many daily needs at all. On the contrary, it's on the far end.
If you want you want to split the difference between everything, you end up in the CWE or the Tower Grove area or something like that (there's plenty of others, not trying to single any out). But if you live in downtown, you have to be willing to drive out to Southwest city or the burbs for a lot of your needs (well, not needs, but common wants). It's our "CBD" supposedly, but it really takes some sacrifice to live there.
And my point isn't to disparage downtown living at all. I'm just thinking about how something like the Ikea and the eventual midtown station, while not actually being downtown, can further boost the attraction of living downtown. Suddenly it's not a 15-20 minute drive southwest or a 20-25 minute or so drive to Brentwood. It's just "down the road". Even better, it will be transit accessible.
That's a lot of words for a relatively simple thought, but it just got me thinking about how even though a lot of the development spur has moved away from downtown, it is still close enough to maybe help it cycle more development (and residents) back to downtown.
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^^ to clarify, the region is estimated to continue to be slowly growing, but the Central Corridor is rather booming, especially with younger adults who will frequent the growing number of entertainment areas.
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I go to Target once every 3 months. Maybe others go more but I don't think it has that big of an impact on the residential population.
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It really is terrible that commercial brokers are having a hard time filling all the retail spots that have opened up because all of the darned buildings getting rehabbed! We may get a few more closings over the winter and Washington Ave may take a bit of a new direction, but I am pretty confident that things will be on the upswing soon and BPV and Wash Ave. etc., can all be winners.wabash wrote:It's nice that these days the dialogue is: "Why isn't Downtown a thriving entertainment and retail center that is busy every night and day of the week? Is it because the growth rate isn't high enough or that the popular areas are competing with each other too much?" Instead of 10-15 years ago "Why are all of these beautiful buildings empty and storefronts boarded up except for Famous-Barr, a moribund St. Louis Centre Mall, Gus's Fashions, and a few rock clubs?"
I also very much agree with you on what you were saying earlier that we need to enhance our transit to boost not just downtown but throughout the Central Corridor and places like Cherokee.
Target is just one example. I go to Target about that much too, and it doesn't make or break my experience. But when I lived in STL Hills around the corner, I went to it a bunch.downtown2007 wrote:I go to Target once every 3 months. Maybe others go more but I don't think it has that big of an impact on the residential population.
I'm not saying Target makes or breaks someone's decision, but I think it only helps.
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People first, Target second. It is backwards if it is Target first, people second.
STL should look to LA on how to build a downtown from the ground up. They are doing some kick a** things there.
STL should look to LA on how to build a downtown from the ground up. They are doing some kick a** things there.