I can definitely see that one taking a BPV hit. Hopefully the neighborhood can start to add some residential -- which it seems poised for -- and perhaps the loss of some of these party joints may help accelerate the development of the area into a proper mixed-use neighborhood.dweebe wrote:This was one of them: but it was supposed to be after New Year's.dweebe wrote:Was recently at an event with a number of bar/restaurant industry people. Talking with some old friends, don't be surprised if this winter is a bloody one for downtown, Landing and Soulard businesses with Ballpark Village to blame. I won't name names but a few significant places won't make it through the winter.
https://www.facebook.com/showmesonthela ... am&fref=nf
Show-Me's on Laclede's Landing has officially closed it's doors after 21 years. Thank you to each and every one of you for your patronage, friendship, and for all of the amazing memories! (If only those wall could talk!)
St.Louis is changing and Show-Me's on the Landing just didn't have the patience to go through the growing pains any longer. Hopefully St.Louis's changes are for the better and maybe ....we'll be back again!
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One Light in KC has so much demand, Cordish is speeding up plans for the second tower.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... e-far.html
I stand by my previous BPV tower information. Unfortunately I'm a bit further removed from BPV now so I don't have recent/new updates.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... e-far.html
I stand by my previous BPV tower information. Unfortunately I'm a bit further removed from BPV now so I don't have recent/new updates.
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I wonder if plans for the BPV tower have diminished due to crime on downtown recently....
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^ I doubt it..... BPV will actually have a lot of similarities with downtown Clayton as it developments into a true mixed-use area in that while they are not gated communities, the two have a more cloistered, sanitized feel. I suspect that if there exists any crime fears from potential luxury tower tenants, something like the possible Drury tower would be impacted more. I just can't fathom a BPV tower not having strong demand.
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I disagree...my interactions with older sets who would pay for condos at BPV tell me that downtown is such a dangerous and violent neighborhood right now....i don't agree with that opinion but it is a perception that exists.
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^ I agree that the perception exists, but I just think the inherent demand for BPV units would overcome any fears moreso than a project elsewhere. Also, I think the BPV tower is rumored to be of a smaller size than the 30 stories Drury was talking about.... I just can't see a 100-200 unit tower in BPV not working.
Even with "COME TO DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS AND YOU'LL DIE!!!" narrative I still could see a smallish-medium sized building being very successful.roger wyoming II wrote:^ I agree that the perception exists, but I just think the inherent demand for BPV units would overcome any fears moreso than a project elsewhere. Also, I think the BPV tower is rumored to be of a smaller size than the 30 stories Drury was talking about.... I just can't see a 100-200 unit tower in BPV not working.
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Demand is still strong in my building. If people really think that them maybe they need to get out more often.sirshankalot wrote:I disagree...my interactions with older sets who would pay for condos at BPV tell me that downtown is such a dangerous and violent neighborhood right now....i don't agree with that opinion but it is a perception that exists.
Especially given the interest expressed over the One Light tower in KC, I can absolutely see Cordish selling out a residential tower of more than 30 stories in BPV. It's got to be the closest thing to a guarantee you're going to get 'round these parts.roger wyoming II wrote:^ I agree that the perception exists, but I just think the inherent demand for BPV units would overcome any fears moreso than a project elsewhere. Also, I think the BPV tower is rumored to be of a smaller size than the 30 stories Drury was talking about.... I just can't see a 100-200 unit tower in BPV not working.
Throw it on top of a multi-level garage with street-level retail a'la the Drury proposal and they could get that puppy up over 350-400' without too much trying.
-RBB
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^ If that large a project can be done downtown, I think it is at BPV. Aside from any issues of crime perception, I think one of the issues facing the potential luxury tower developers is how much demand will there be for upscale pricing that will be needed to support new tower construction... I could be wrong but I suspect rental rates at a BPV or Drury tower would have to be among the highest per sq. ft. in the region. Again, I think that will work at BPV but it may be hard to move forward with multiple towers downtown, especially with all the projects elsewhere in the Central Corridor eating into potential tenants.
That 1000+ person waiting list for One Light in KC has me intrigued. Assuming even a percentage of them are legitimately interested then they severely underestimated the volume of folks wanting a place there or the price; probably both. With all due respect to P&L, which I'm sure is a draw in and of itself, one would have to think that the ballpark and/or Arch views would command more of a premium; the KC tower doesn't have a draw like that.roger wyoming II wrote:^ If that large a project can be done downtown, I think it is at BPV. Aside from any issues of crime perception, I think one of the issues facing the potential luxury tower developers is how much demand will there be for upscale pricing that will be needed to support new tower construction... I could be wrong but I suspect rental rates at a BPV or Drury tower would have to be among the highest per sq. ft. in the region. Again, I think that will work at BPV but it may be hard to move forward with multiple towers downtown, especially with all the projects elsewhere in the Central Corridor eating into potential tenants.
Heck they even have a built-in pool of multi-millionaires working less than a block away. Think Cardinal players/managers/owners/etc wouldn't want to live there? In my completely uneducated opinion they could support multiple seven-figure residential units in BPV (though that might mean building two 25-ish story towers with Penthouses instead of one taller one).
-RBB
My two cents, you can't compare P&L and BPV as apples and apples. Agree that demand is there for a BPV residential just as you see for P&L but Kansas City has had to literally backed the bonds on everything Cordish has done even including the residential tower from my understanding. I'm absolutely convinced that DeWitt/Cordish won't build anything substantial until they got a backroom deal with the city leadership to do something similar as KC has done to date at this point.
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What I'm curious about and how will the Drury proposal play out and if their proposal is giving city some leverage to tell Cordish to go pound sand. Drury must be getting ready to build the Arch replacement garage this coming spring or sooner and at some point you will see the north riverfront stadium proposal brought out of the backroom. Throw in the steady progress on Arch Grounds and additional N. Riverfront trail work. I can see them actually going forward with their tower before BPV. Also, somehow I can see Stifel Nichols backing a part of the Drury project. Why? At one point they were going to anchor a BPV tower, maybe not on the grand scale of Centene, but like Centene pulled out and chartered their own course. I can see Stifel very much wanting to see Drury succeed as well as take a stake in Laclede's Landing (think BPV) and maybe even name rights to a NFL stadium.
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What I'm curious about and how will the Drury proposal play out and if their proposal is giving city some leverage to tell Cordish to go pound sand. Drury must be getting ready to build the Arch replacement garage this coming spring or sooner and at some point you will see the north riverfront stadium proposal brought out of the backroom. Throw in the steady progress on Arch Grounds and additional N. Riverfront trail work. I can see them actually going forward with their tower before BPV. Also, somehow I can see Stifel Nichols backing a part of the Drury project. Why? At one point they were going to anchor a BPV tower, maybe not on the grand scale of Centene, but like Centene pulled out and chartered their own course. I can see Stifel very much wanting to see Drury succeed as well as take a stake in Laclede's Landing (think BPV) and maybe even name rights to a NFL stadium.
What building is that?downtown2007 wrote:Demand is still strong in my building. If people really think that them maybe they need to get out more often.
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Ely Walkerstlien wrote:What building is that?downtown2007 wrote:Demand is still strong in my building. If people really think that them maybe they need to get out more often.
KC dumped $8 million into the One Light Tower.
"The City of Kansas City subsidized $8 million for the project. In return, the project is expected to generate $37 million dollars in tax revenue for the city during the 25 years after completion, according to Benjamin." - http://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/cor ... owntown-kc
Would STL put $8 million into one apartment project?
"The City of Kansas City subsidized $8 million for the project. In return, the project is expected to generate $37 million dollars in tax revenue for the city during the 25 years after completion, according to Benjamin." - http://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/cor ... owntown-kc
Would STL put $8 million into one apartment project?
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^ Cordish is getting an $8 million direct contribution from the City plus a 25 year term tax abatement of 100%, with the company paying back 50% of that with funds directed to paying off Power & Light city-backed bonds. So, yeah, KC is subsidizing Cordish out the wahoo.
While not making a direct contribution, KC also is granting 25 year tax abatement and $8 million in TIF for the rehab by a different company of the historic Power & Light Building...
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view from the 29th floor
I believe Cincy also has directly backed some projects.... I wouldn't do it for new construction but I think it may be worth taking a look at providing a direct payment to key buildings such as the Jefferson Arms and Railway Exchange as they likely will need the kitchen sink of incentives thrown at them if they are ever going to be redeveloped. (Come to think of it, Arcade-Wright may have received direct backing but I'll have to double check.)
While not making a direct contribution, KC also is granting 25 year tax abatement and $8 million in TIF for the rehab by a different company of the historic Power & Light Building...
view from the 29th floor
I believe Cincy also has directly backed some projects.... I wouldn't do it for new construction but I think it may be worth taking a look at providing a direct payment to key buildings such as the Jefferson Arms and Railway Exchange as they likely will need the kitchen sink of incentives thrown at them if they are ever going to be redeveloped. (Come to think of it, Arcade-Wright may have received direct backing but I'll have to double check.)
Oh I agree that they're not directly comparable. I was mostly intrigued by the interest.dredger wrote:My two cents, you can't compare P&L and BPV as apples and apples. Agree that demand is there for a BPV residential just as you see for P&L but Kansas City has had to literally backed the bonds on everything Cordish has done even including the residential tower from my understanding. I'm absolutely convinced that DeWitt/Cordish won't build anything substantial until they got a backroom deal with the city leadership to do something similar as KC has done to date at this point.
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What I'm curious about and how will the Drury proposal play out and if their proposal is giving city some leverage to tell Cordish to go pound sand. Drury must be getting ready to build the Arch replacement garage this coming spring or sooner and at some point you will see the north riverfront stadium proposal brought out of the backroom. Throw in the steady progress on Arch Grounds and additional N. Riverfront trail work. I can see them actually going forward with their tower before BPV. Also, somehow I can see Stifel Nichols backing a part of the Drury project. Why? At one point they were going to anchor a BPV tower, maybe not on the grand scale of Centene, but like Centene pulled out and chartered their own course. I can see Stifel very much wanting to see Drury succeed as well as take a stake in Laclede's Landing (think BPV) and maybe even name rights to a NFL stadium.
I'm sure Cordish would love it if the city bankrolled BPV the same as KC did, but I'm hopeful the apparently overwhelming interest there would show them that they can still build a substantial residential tower here and see a profit. I seriously doubt the 1000 people there care how the building was financed; they want to live in a new building downtown.
They have to assume more financial risk here to build than they would in KC, absolutely. But look at the the interest in One Light as sort of a hedged proof-of-concept. With relatively little risk to them they've been shown proof that a downtown residential tower will work. So maybe they'll be a bit more willing to take a risk - or at least more of a risk than they would otherwise - here.
-RBB
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Cordish is risk-averse....Has that not been shown to since 2006?
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^ I'm not sure if its the elephant in the room, but the OPOP Tower's leasing rates surely are being looked closely by Cordish and Drury, etc.... I'm not sure where OPOP leasing level is at currently but I doubt it has reached 50%. It would be good to know how developers feel about the rate of leasing there.
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Just checked out the OPOP stats from their website.roger wyoming II wrote:^ I'm not sure if its the elephant in the room, but the OPOP Tower's leasing rates surely are being looked closely by Cordish and Drury, etc.... I'm not sure where OPOP leasing level is at currently but I doubt it has reached 50%. It would be good to know how developers feel about the rate of leasing there.
50 units reserved
41 units "coming soon"
7 units "unavailable"
28 units available now
So, 40% of the 126 total units are reserved - 64% of the available units.
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I wonder how accurate and up to date the website is....
I have two friends who have looked into living here. They were really excited about new construction highrise and not low rise rehab loft. Both couples ended up elsewhere, both in the cwe actually, because their wives wanted a 2nd bedroom.
I have two friends who have looked into living here. They were really excited about new construction highrise and not low rise rehab loft. Both couples ended up elsewhere, both in the cwe actually, because their wives wanted a 2nd bedroom.
I REALLY don't think the OPO Tower ought to be much of a guide for any BPV tower. I continue to maintain that a semi-luxury to luxury tower at BPV appeals to an entirely different section of the population. We're talking the people that live in St. Louis Hills, Clayton, West County, St. Charles County, etc.
That tower is going to draw a lot more than urbanists with money. It's going to draw people with money that love the Cardinals. I just wish they'd build the thing already.
That tower is going to draw a lot more than urbanists with money. It's going to draw people with money that love the Cardinals. I just wish they'd build the thing already.
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^ I agree with that but a risk-averse company like Cordish may not.
btw, if around 50 of the 128 OPOP Tower units have been leased to date that number seems to be something between encouraging and discouraging. I guess it is couraging?
btw, if around 50 of the 128 OPOP Tower units have been leased to date that number seems to be something between encouraging and discouraging. I guess it is couraging?
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The village tower at car park village should be condo NOT rental. Or at least a mix.