Im hoping within the next 6 months there be an announcement on a 2nd phase which is key to getting this whole thing rolling and helping it become more of a destination
KC backing the bonds of P&L might have been the best thing the city couldve done. It put them in a spot where they had nowhere to go but up, so they started thinking smartly and moved quickly on the streetcar plan. They were backed into a corner with millions leaving their general revenue fund, they had to do something "drastic" and they did - which is spurring a lot more development. If STL wasn't so ok with being mediocre, maybe we could be as proactive as KC.
Imagine if STL did back the bonds.. I bet Cordish would be building a new residential tower at BPV right now.
Imagine if STL did back the bonds.. I bet Cordish would be building a new residential tower at BPV right now.
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Well no shat they would be building it right now, who wouldn't when it's risk free...it's smart for the taxpayers to take the hit if a private companies business plan fails...if we start that, heck I'll take out bonds to build a tower since the rest of the city residents will be on the hook if I fail....
Personally, while we all want to see BPV chug along faster, I don't think it would have made sense for St. Louis to back the bonds for BPV - especially considering the state of the national (and local) economy at the time. Also, knowing the budget hole KC created for itself it would have been a foolish move by STL, I think.
Not to jab KC, but I don't see how they were progressive. KC does get credit for putting pressure on Cordish, but it was out of desperation. Recent demands by KC on Cordish was more out of desperation in order to slow the budget bleeding. KC had to get onto Cordish because KC had so much riding on P&L financially. AND...Cordish had to act fast in KC after the city applied pressure because Cordish's reputation was on the line.
Further, in the past, KC had voted down light rail more than once - I believe. That's not progressive at all. A special downtown transportation taxing district was created to help fund their upcoming starter line. I don't believe it was a citywide vote - just businesses and property owners in the special taxing district. AND, there was much opposition and as well as lawsuits to stop it. Fortunately, it passed.
Nonetheless, good timing is everything. It has all come together for KC, which is good - but it was by accident and good luck - and some hard work - but not necessarily all progressiveness.
Here's a great article to read about the streetcar and P&L District and how KC's credit rating has taken a hit.
Not to jab KC, but I don't see how they were progressive. KC does get credit for putting pressure on Cordish, but it was out of desperation. Recent demands by KC on Cordish was more out of desperation in order to slow the budget bleeding. KC had to get onto Cordish because KC had so much riding on P&L financially. AND...Cordish had to act fast in KC after the city applied pressure because Cordish's reputation was on the line.
Further, in the past, KC had voted down light rail more than once - I believe. That's not progressive at all. A special downtown transportation taxing district was created to help fund their upcoming starter line. I don't believe it was a citywide vote - just businesses and property owners in the special taxing district. AND, there was much opposition and as well as lawsuits to stop it. Fortunately, it passed.
Nonetheless, good timing is everything. It has all come together for KC, which is good - but it was by accident and good luck - and some hard work - but not necessarily all progressiveness.
Here's a great article to read about the streetcar and P&L District and how KC's credit rating has taken a hit.
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Channel 4 has a story on how non BPV bars have seen a serious blow to business this year.
BPV is fresh and new.
But I suspect there will be a balance (or settling) of patrons as the season goes on. I sure hope so because when patronage dwindles at BPV, perhaps Cordish and DeWitt will be more inclined to get Phase II going sooner.
I also feel the impacted businesses need to step up their game to compete harder.
Cheaper drinks, specials on food and drinks, bands and entertainment, contests, free WiFi etc. etc.
They should band together to form a district that will compete with BPV.
See KMOV story here.
But I suspect there will be a balance (or settling) of patrons as the season goes on. I sure hope so because when patronage dwindles at BPV, perhaps Cordish and DeWitt will be more inclined to get Phase II going sooner.
I also feel the impacted businesses need to step up their game to compete harder.
Cheaper drinks, specials on food and drinks, bands and entertainment, contests, free WiFi etc. etc.
They should band together to form a district that will compete with BPV.
See KMOV story here.
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Also noticed that the "flagship" Majestic store is open... Its less than 1,000 sf with only Cardinals stuff from what I could see. Hardly a destination, mostly a glorified souvenir stand. Why go here when the Cardinals stadium shop is just a few yards away?
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I know very little about kc. Only been once and I stayed in the suburbs. But what I do know is they have to be totally regretting guaranteeing those bonds. They've been on the hook for bond payments since P&L opened I believe which is not what you want.
And compared to KC I think STL has a pretty robust transportation system right? KC only has buses from my understanding, no light rail. I think in a couple years if STL builds out the loop trolley and phase one of the downtown streetcar we will look even better compared to KC in terms of transportation.
And compared to KC I think STL has a pretty robust transportation system right? KC only has buses from my understanding, no light rail. I think in a couple years if STL builds out the loop trolley and phase one of the downtown streetcar we will look even better compared to KC in terms of transportation.
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Actually KC is quite progressive than what you may think.. They have a BRT called The Max and also they are about to build their Street Car .. P&L isn't doing all that bad from what i hear and i really like the things KC is doing also the city seems to have a lot of energy..
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What the KMOV report suggested to me is that A) i guess the guys at Paddy O's might have to try a little harder to turn a profit than opening up a 30 pack and selling 12 oz cans for $5 bucks. and B) just moving post game $$$ around from one bar to another is not going to create the downtown we'd all like to see. I heard alot of talk about how BPV would attract a new cliental or get more people downtown before and after games and while there is probably a small degree of truth its not a sustainable business plan for either BPV or the other establishments.
What downtown needs is more people 24/7. Still too many vacant lots, still too many vacant buildings, still too much dependence on the easy dollars like parking a car or selling a beer. If i was the guys who owned Paddyo's my response would be re invest the profits from the salad days before BPV to buy out some of the parking lots south that are probably also losing a bit to more BPV proximate lots and start building apartments south of the stadium and creating a neighborhood there, where Cordish and the Cardinals won't north of the stadium. It wouldn't have to be high rise and wouldn't probably ever really compete with whatever the Cordish guys finally build and they can get a jump on the competition this way and they can benefit off of the BPV future potential & proximity. Apartments are strong now, financing is available for developers, especially those with strong balance sheets and those guys ought to have a pile of cash from every one of those 30 packs that they sold at 10x markup!
What downtown needs is more people 24/7. Still too many vacant lots, still too many vacant buildings, still too much dependence on the easy dollars like parking a car or selling a beer. If i was the guys who owned Paddyo's my response would be re invest the profits from the salad days before BPV to buy out some of the parking lots south that are probably also losing a bit to more BPV proximate lots and start building apartments south of the stadium and creating a neighborhood there, where Cordish and the Cardinals won't north of the stadium. It wouldn't have to be high rise and wouldn't probably ever really compete with whatever the Cordish guys finally build and they can get a jump on the competition this way and they can benefit off of the BPV future potential & proximity. Apartments are strong now, financing is available for developers, especially those with strong balance sheets and those guys ought to have a pile of cash from every one of those 30 packs that they sold at 10x markup!
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^ Good points, but Paddy O's spend their salad days money expanding their bar. The other thing that comes to mind is how its a shame Chouteau's Landing never made it.
Here is another good story from Business Journal mentioning Paddy O's along with Flying Saucer and Broadway Oyster Bar; essentially competitors need to differentiate themselves like BOB from BPV:
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog ... l?page=all
Here is another good story from Business Journal mentioning Paddy O's along with Flying Saucer and Broadway Oyster Bar; essentially competitors need to differentiate themselves like BOB from BPV:
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog ... l?page=all
wrong link.roger wyoming II wrote:Here is another good story from Business Journal mentioning Paddy O's along with Flying Saucer and Broadway Oyster Bar; essentially competitors need to differentiate themselves like BOB from BPV:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 91163.html
It kills me when ppl say that Paddy O's needs to try harder. This is what they have been doing for years, this is their bread and butter. They're only open for baseball season right? They never tried to be anything else but a Cards bar. It was just unfortunate that an organization with more money than them built 4 restaurants on the other side of the stadium.americancitizen wrote:What the KMOV report suggested to me is that A) i guess the guys at Paddy O's might have to try a little harder to turn a profit than opening up a 30 pack and selling 12 oz cans for $5 bucks. and B) just moving post game $$$ around from one bar to another is not going to create the downtown we'd all like to see. I heard alot of talk about how BPV would attract a new cliental or get more people downtown before and after games and while there is probably a small degree of truth its not a sustainable business plan for either BPV or the other establishments.
What downtown needs is more people 24/7. Still too many vacant lots, still too many vacant buildings, still too much dependence on the easy dollars like parking a car or selling a beer. If i was the guys who owned Paddyo's my response would be re invest the profits from the salad days before BPV to buy out some of the parking lots south that are probably also losing a bit to more BPV proximate lots and start building apartments south of the stadium and creating a neighborhood there, where Cordish and the Cardinals won't north of the stadium. It wouldn't have to be high rise and wouldn't probably ever really compete with whatever the Cordish guys finally build and they can get a jump on the competition this way and they can benefit off of the BPV future potential & proximity. Apartments are strong now, financing is available for developers, especially those with strong balance sheets and those guys ought to have a pile of cash from every one of those 30 packs that they sold at 10x markup!
And I bet they wouldn't be able to build on those lots if they wanted; the city wouldn't allow it.
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sorry about that... here it is:stlien wrote:wrong link.roger wyoming II wrote:Here is another good story from Business Journal mentioning Paddy O's along with Flying Saucer and Broadway Oyster Bar; essentially competitors need to differentiate themselves like BOB from BPV:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 91163.html
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog ... l?page=all
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Well they did have a good run, and how could they have known about that potential Ballpark Village competition anyway. Apparently it took them by complete surprise. i guess they should just give up and close their doors then, since they have no other options.It kills me when ppl say that Paddy O's needs to try harder. This is what they have been doing for years, this is their bread and butter. They're only open for baseball season right? They never tried to be anything else but a Cards bar. It was just unfortunate that an organization with more money than them built 4 restaurants on the other side of the stadium.
And I bet they wouldn't be able to build on those lots if they wanted; the city wouldn't allow it.
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Seem's like cheap beer and cheap food (ala Fast Eddies Bon Aire) and projecting games on the side of that building they have might be a way to go. Its not like BPV is competing on price.americancitizen wrote:Well they did have a good run, and how could they have known about that potential Ballpark Village competition anyway. Apparently it took them by complete surprise. i guess they should just give up and close their doors then, since they have no other options.It kills me when ppl say that Paddy O's needs to try harder. This is what they have been doing for years, this is their bread and butter. They're only open for baseball season right? They never tried to be anything else but a Cards bar. It was just unfortunate that an organization with more money than them built 4 restaurants on the other side of the stadium.
And I bet they wouldn't be able to build on those lots if they wanted; the city wouldn't allow it.
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^ i think thats a sharp idea, especially short term.
Longer term, maybe some think the area south of the stadium is not great for residential, so if not that, how about some new jobs? In the State of Downtown thread there's lots of talk about the need to bring more jobs downtown, which I totally agree.
Since large blocks of office space is slow to fill, what are some facilities that could be built on those south lots? Probably not high rise, but could new low to mid rise buildings bring a few hundred (or more) new employees to that area, adding density and foot traffic? Even if you built on some of the lots there's still TONS of daily parking.
so thinking out loud, maybe some creative space for tech startups, advertising, marketing? Light manufacturing? what else? IDK, just brain storming ideas to gain density that would be better for the city, for downtown and also for the business around the stadium that area not not in BPV.
Longer term, maybe some think the area south of the stadium is not great for residential, so if not that, how about some new jobs? In the State of Downtown thread there's lots of talk about the need to bring more jobs downtown, which I totally agree.
Since large blocks of office space is slow to fill, what are some facilities that could be built on those south lots? Probably not high rise, but could new low to mid rise buildings bring a few hundred (or more) new employees to that area, adding density and foot traffic? Even if you built on some of the lots there's still TONS of daily parking.
so thinking out loud, maybe some creative space for tech startups, advertising, marketing? Light manufacturing? what else? IDK, just brain storming ideas to gain density that would be better for the city, for downtown and also for the business around the stadium that area not not in BPV.
I'd like to see more row houses in and around downtown. They used to be ubiquitous. Now it's hard to think of any other than the Campbell House and Eugene Field House. Something like Lafayette Walk would be great just about anywhere outside of the densest core of DT.
Exactly, something like North Sarah, but even nicer would do well in the area immediately south of downtown. 3 and 2 story rowhouse neighborhood could easily connect Soulard and Lafayette Square with downtown.wabash wrote:I'd like to see more row houses in and around downtown. They used to be ubiquitous. Now it's hard to think of any other than the Campbell House and Eugene Field House. Something like Lafayette Walk would be great just about anywhere outside of the densest core of DT.
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^ yeah, a combo of mixed-use buildings and townhomes would be awesome for a new district that weaves in with downtown and Soulard/Lafayette Square. Some of the cool train infrastructure could also be a positive with creative design. And of course it also could integrate some of the Chouteau Greenway elements. (I believe GRG had some kind of basic plan in mind that was submitted to EWG for the transportation tax but can't remember details.)
Maybe a couple nice mid-rises could be part of key corners, but nothing too great with height would be needed to make for a nice district.
Maybe a couple nice mid-rises could be part of key corners, but nothing too great with height would be needed to make for a nice district.
My two cents...
1) this is a non-story. Whether in Clayton, downtown, Edwardsville, Chesterfield, etc; when a new "significant" restaurant opens, surrounding restaurants take 15-25 percent hits temporarily. Some regain their previous sales levels, some see a permanent drop. The fact that Paddy Os and Flying Saucer have seen just a 20-25 percent hit when 8 bars/ restaurants open at BPV, I'd consider that a small victory especially during their honeymoon season.
2) Paddy Os is doing a lot more gross sales than they let on in the article. They may have taken a hit from last year but their gross sales numbers are a lot, lot higher. I wouldn't lose any sleep for them.
3) Long term, BPV will help the surrounding Busch Stadium bars and restaurants. It attracts people to downtown all year long, keeps people from getting in their cars at 5pm after work and going to the burbs, keeps people downtown that are here to visit for business or fun versus going to the CWE, Soulard, Clayton, etc.
1) this is a non-story. Whether in Clayton, downtown, Edwardsville, Chesterfield, etc; when a new "significant" restaurant opens, surrounding restaurants take 15-25 percent hits temporarily. Some regain their previous sales levels, some see a permanent drop. The fact that Paddy Os and Flying Saucer have seen just a 20-25 percent hit when 8 bars/ restaurants open at BPV, I'd consider that a small victory especially during their honeymoon season.
2) Paddy Os is doing a lot more gross sales than they let on in the article. They may have taken a hit from last year but their gross sales numbers are a lot, lot higher. I wouldn't lose any sleep for them.
3) Long term, BPV will help the surrounding Busch Stadium bars and restaurants. It attracts people to downtown all year long, keeps people from getting in their cars at 5pm after work and going to the burbs, keeps people downtown that are here to visit for business or fun versus going to the CWE, Soulard, Clayton, etc.
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I really don't see how BVP helps the surrounding area. The goal of BVP is to get you in there and keep you in there. Its not like these are street level storefronts that encourage you to walk around the neighborhood. Just seems like a very dated, neighborhood unfriendly concept. Like others have said. . .Smells an awful lot like Union station and St Louis center.
^ Shouldn't that the business plan of every business including PaddyO's that rely on the consumers discretionary income? PaddyO's isn't going to give you a box seat but pretty sure that they want you to stay longer and spend every dollar in your wallet
I'm with Kbshapiro. The real test is what goes next to BPV Live on Clark Street either it be residential tower, or residential/hotel and if they can get it to happen sooner than later. I believe everybody sees office space as a very long term outcome. DeWitt/Cordish had two chances, Centene and then Stifel Nichols. I don't think outcome is no surprise considering the both DeWitt and Cordish are wealthy enough to sit on land.
I'm with Kbshapiro. The real test is what goes next to BPV Live on Clark Street either it be residential tower, or residential/hotel and if they can get it to happen sooner than later. I believe everybody sees office space as a very long term outcome. DeWitt/Cordish had two chances, Centene and then Stifel Nichols. I don't think outcome is no surprise considering the both DeWitt and Cordish are wealthy enough to sit on land.
I 100% agree. This is a complete over-reaction to a very small sample size. Let's check back in at this time next year and see how everyone is doing. The newness will wear off and the business will redistribute back to a more normal level. I do believe that BPV will keep a demographic from the burbs downtown that normally wouldn't have stayed before and after games, but everyone else will go back to their regular spots.kbshapiro wrote:My two cents...
1) this is a non-story. Whether in Clayton, downtown, Edwardsville, Chesterfield, etc; when a new "significant" restaurant opens, surrounding restaurants take 15-25 percent hits temporarily. Some regain their previous sales levels, some see a permanent drop. The fact that Paddy Os and Flying Saucer have seen just a 20-25 percent hit when 8 bars/ restaurants open at BPV, I'd consider that a small victory especially during their honeymoon season.
2) Paddy Os is doing a lot more gross sales than they let on in the article. They may have taken a hit from last year but their gross sales numbers are a lot, lot higher. I wouldn't lose any sleep for them.
3) Long term, BPV will help the surrounding Busch Stadium bars and restaurants. It attracts people to downtown all year long, keeps people from getting in their cars at 5pm after work and going to the burbs, keeps people downtown that are here to visit for business or fun versus going to the CWE, Soulard, Clayton, etc.
To be sustainable long term BPV needs to add a residential and office component in short order.
I'm sure Paddy O's is still making money because they still draw decent crowds due to all the parking south of the stadium. Plus they still charge damn near inside-the-stadium prices. They're probably complaining because they're not making the mountains of money they did in the last decade.robertn42 wrote:I 100% agree. This is a complete over-reaction to a very small sample size. Let's check back in at this time next year and see how everyone is doing. The newness will wear off and the business will redistribute back to a more normal level. I do believe that BPV will keep a demographic from the burbs downtown that normally wouldn't have stayed before and after games, but everyone else will go back to their regular spots.kbshapiro wrote:My two cents...
1) this is a non-story. Whether in Clayton, downtown, Edwardsville, Chesterfield, etc; when a new "significant" restaurant opens, surrounding restaurants take 15-25 percent hits temporarily. Some regain their previous sales levels, some see a permanent drop. The fact that Paddy Os and Flying Saucer have seen just a 20-25 percent hit when 8 bars/ restaurants open at BPV, I'd consider that a small victory especially during their honeymoon season.
2) Paddy Os is doing a lot more gross sales than they let on in the article. They may have taken a hit from last year but their gross sales numbers are a lot, lot higher. I wouldn't lose any sleep for them.
3) Long term, BPV will help the surrounding Busch Stadium bars and restaurants. It attracts people to downtown all year long, keeps people from getting in their cars at 5pm after work and going to the burbs, keeps people downtown that are here to visit for business or fun versus going to the CWE, Soulard, Clayton, etc.
To be sustainable long term BPV needs to add a residential and office component in short order.
The place I'm worried about is Flying Saucer.