urbanSTL

vollum wrote:“If there’s a premise” to the village, says Alex Ihnen, editor of the popular local urban affairs blog NextSTL, “it’s that this entertainment complex is going to bring brand new people to the city.” This same silver bullet approach has been tried many times in St. Louis, dating back to the Gateway Arch in the 1960s, and has continued with publicly financed stadiums, malls, and marketplaces.

“Every time one of these big projects has been proposed,” he said, “everyone’s been told ‘this is the key to the city’s future.’” But many, like the Edward Jones Dome, have saddled the city with debt, and none has reversed its structural decline.

I think Alex has it right. The arch grounds is the newest silver bullet. There are no silver bullets. Until this region wakes up and starts consistently making small strategic investments (public and private) that promote the economic growth of the entire region, as opposed to localized parts of the region, we will continue to stagnate....which means we will continue to decline relative to other urban regions in the USA that do get the fact that the fates of each/all of there parts is/are really dependent on the fate of the whole. Hope the folks that run this place wake up. It's a great place. I really like it. Hate to see it continue on its downward spiral.

Twenty years ago, all the heads of the big St. Louis based banks sold out to out of town banks. But in Minneapolis, Cincinnati, and Charlotte, they kept their big local banks and expanded them by buying up rivals. Now they all have new skyscrapers downtown which sends the message that they are booming up and coming cities. When we lost all of our banks, our depositors essentially starting sending all that easy money to other cities to build their civic pride at our expense. So how do we get it back?

Twenty years ago, all the heads of the big St. Louis based banks sold out to out of town banks. But in Minneapolis, Cincinnati, and Charlotte, they kept their big local banks and expanded them by buying up rivals. Now they all have new skyscrapers downtown which sends the message that they are booming up and coming cities. When we lost all of our banks, our depositors essentially starting sending all that easy money to other cities to build their civic pride at our expense.

Never quite realized that... it explains a lot. Thanks/

The down economy certainly stalled or killed some projects here. I would Absolutely love to see Skyhouse come back to life also i'm not sure if BVP was even considered a silver lining project for downtown I think it would have carried tremendous amounts of momentum if they'd snagged Centene. I could see a nice office building along with several new residential buildings but the same could be said about the BD which was to have the tallest building built on it at 630' however that didn't come to fruition either.I think having a livelier CB is important but connecting each project together would be great.The New football stadium connected to BD,BD connected to Lecledes landing Lecledes Landing connected to the new Arch grounds the new Arch grounds connected to BPV and in the future BPV connected to Chouteaus Landing and possible new lake.. All of it connected by a new street car walking trails biking trails switching some roads downtown to 2 way traffic as well... Whats the key ingredient we're lacking downtown?

roger wyoming II wrote:I think landing Centene would have been the game-changer for BPV. Centene is flying high now, too:
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... a041e.html

And it's also important to keep in mind that losing Centene caused downtown to lose Armstrong Teasdale as well.

Okay, ready to add my thoughts to the BPV mix.

Took the train into town last Friday, walked over to our hotel (Westin), and checked in. Next we walked over to Ballpark Village to meet a relative at about 4:45pm. The Cardinals, I should note, were in Cincinnati with a game starting shortly after 6:00pm. Clark Street was (unnecessarily) closed from 7th to Broadway.

Can't say I was a fan, but let's be honest -- this place wasn't built for me. There were some people there -- probably 40 or so around the main floor and just as many scattered about the upstairs. A few more grey hairs and families came in and looked around before heading back out. We grabbed a table in the main area (behind the cushy circular seats), had a pint of O'Fallon Wheach ($6.50 per!) and some fried shrimp. Howl at the Moon was closed, the Tengo Sur staff looked like they hadn't seen a customer all day, and the whole place just felt like a food court at a mall on a Wednesday around 11:30am.

The giant TV was blaring out pre-coverage of the Indy 500 (until the Cardinals pre-game came on). Oddly, a guy next got on the "stage" with a microphone and requisite cheesy emcee voice, encouraging everyone to go outside at 5:30pm for free samples of Landshark on Clark Street. Something about tapping the weekend's first keg...sponsored by Landshark. There were people standing out there waiting...the kind you'd expect to stand in line for a free dixie cup of Landshark. There was also a band playing outside when we left and a few people lounging on the "infield."

Obviously, the day/time I was there wasn't the "experience" for which this place was built. But I think it's a sign of things to come. I really do fear the "Ballpark Village" branding for this development, when we were promised that would be the name for the entirety of the build-out. Seems we're being set up for a bit of a bait-and-switch ("What are you talking about?! We said we were going to build Ballpark Village. Don't you see all the signage? It's built!)

The whole experience was very controlled and sanitized...which, I admit, will appeal to a lot of Cardinals fans. I can't help but think they've screwed the pooch though, by turning it inward, rather than positioning all these bars/restaurants at street level, so that you've immediately created a walkable commercial stretch that improves the Clark Street/Busch Stadium experience, rather than turning away from it.

Sadly I think is what most of the fans want. Restraints and bars close to the stadium with extra parking and a more controlled experience that is cut off from the city. I wound not bet the future of downtown on cards fans. They really don't want the urban experience. I don't think they spend much money outside of the stadium and bars around it.

Kevin B wrote:Okay, ready to add my thoughts to the BPV mix.

Took the train into town last Friday, walked over to our hotel (Westin), and checked in. Next we walked over to Ballpark Village to meet a relative at about 4:45pm. The Cardinals, I should note, were in Cincinnati with a game starting shortly after 6:00pm. Clark Street was (unnecessarily) closed from 7th to Broadway.

Can't say I was a fan, but let's be honest -- this place wasn't built for me. There were some people there -- probably 40 or so around the main floor and just as many scattered about the upstairs. A few more grey hairs and families came in and looked around before heading back out. We grabbed a table in the main area (behind the cushy circular seats), had a pint of O'Fallon Wheach ($6.50 per!) and some fried shrimp. Howl at the Moon was closed, the Tengo Sur staff looked like they hadn't seen a customer all day, and the whole place just felt like a food court at a mall on a Wednesday around 11:30am.

The giant TV was blaring out pre-coverage of the Indy 500 (until the Cardinals pre-game came on). Oddly, a guy next got on the "stage" with a microphone and requisite cheesy emcee voice, encouraging everyone to go outside at 5:30pm for free samples of Landshark on Clark Street. Something about tapping the weekend's first keg...sponsored by Landshark. There were people standing out there waiting...the kind you'd expect to stand in line for a free dixie cup of Landshark. There was also a band playing outside when we left and a few people lounging on the "infield."

Obviously, the day/time I was there wasn't the "experience" for which this place was built. But I think it's a sign of things to come. I really do fear the "Ballpark Village" branding for this development, when we were promised that would be the name for the entirety of the build-out. Seems we're being set up for a bit of a bait-and-switch ("What are you talking about?! We said we were going to build Ballpark Village. Don't you see all the signage? It's built!)

The whole experience was very controlled and sanitized...which, I admit, will appeal to a lot of Cardinals fans. I can't help but think they've screwed the pooch though, by turning it inward, rather than positioning all these bars/restaurants at street level, so that you've immediately created a walkable commercial stretch that improves the Clark Street/Busch Stadium experience, rather than turning away from it.

I'm shocked it wasn't more crowded.

You make a great point about opening it up to the street.

Is there anything stopping the bars from opening up to the sidewalk in the future? The mall in downtown Indianapolis lost its main department store tenant (Nordstrom) a few years back and is now turning the first floor of that space into a few restaurants opening up to the sidewalk. Point being, minor construction down the road shouldn't be out of the question if the downtown bar mall starts going the way of shopping malls.

At this point, I think the dynamics will change much more for the better once a high rise residential tower and a high rise hotel/residential with more Clark facing retail is added. Right now, I just don't see how people can really expect the crowds other then game days or big telecast events.

Now give it a year and if ground isn't broken for a residential tower we should all go on an extending rant. At that point, kill the thread and start anew. I believe we are on BPV thread II. That would make it thread III. or at least since I started posting, maybe we are on BPV III and don't know it

deformative wrote:Is there anything stopping the bars from opening up to the sidewalk in the future? The mall in downtown Indianapolis lost its main department store tenant (Nordstrom) a few years back and is now turning the first floor of that space into a few restaurants opening up to the sidewalk. Point being, minor construction down the road shouldn't be out of the question if the downtown bar mall starts going the way of shopping malls.

New construction should require first floor store fronts to open to the street. I think for the current BPV concept its what you see is what you get.

^ Once (hopefully not if) residential or office gets built in BPV, it will be interesting to see how/where they position it on the site. Are streets still going to cut through the site?

I don't see the site plan for future phases on the Cordish, Cardinals, or bpv website. It's been posted on here before. They're not rebuilding the street grid.

BrickCity4470 wrote:Whats the key ingredient we're lacking downtown?

Key ingredient = jobs.

And It's difficult to attract those new jobs without better (and more) quality office space options. Additionally, the perception of crime isn't helping. If downtown continues to get built/developed as an entertainment zone/playground/etc then that's what people will treat it as.

I had my girlfriend's family in from Manhattan last week and they enjoyed it.

moorlander wrote:I don't see the site plan for future phases on the Cordish, Cardinals, or bpv website. It's been posted on here before. They're not rebuilding the street grid.

I believe they are, but not to the degree they originally were (which was pretty much entirely). I think now it's restoring one of the through streets, but not all of them or something like that.

I could be wrong.

Mark Groth wrote:Does anyone get the same feeling walking into BPV that you did when you walked into St. Louis Center or Union Station in the 1980's? Mall.

Yes. Like Westport (where Drunken Fish is) as well.

Mark Groth wrote:Does anyone get the same feeling walking into BPV that you did when you walked into St. Louis Center or Union Station in the 1980's? Mall.

Definitely. The one thing it has going for it over those two things, though, is the fact that it's tied to the Cardinals, which are a guaranteed attraction from April through at least September each year.

Still, unless they continue developing it, it will definitely lose a lot of steam in the offseason.