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PostAug 10, 2011#101

stlcardsblues1989 wrote: Power and Light might be busier if Sprint Center had a sports team....

The Link and Crown Center and Union Station were great as well, though we did most of the stuff in it after a couple of days. Downtown Kansas City feels smaller than Downtown St. Louis, and feels less busy as well. Of course, the metro is also smaller in general.

Unfortunately, I haven't been to a lot of the tourist things in Downtown, like CityGarden, yet. When we visit St. Louis, it's usually for a game, and usually we drive home the same night. It's been a long time since I've been to St. Louis as a tourist with time to kill. I was a tourist in KC last month. As a tourist in KC I had a lot of fun, but it wasn't any better than St. Louis in my mind.
Re: Sprint Center, I understand that their bookings are excellent and a sports team really wouldn't help as it would take away from these other events.... a team would be more of a status thing as opposed to actual attendance increase. (I guess landing a sucky team might even hurt overall attendance.)

Re; tourism, it really is amazing what genorosity the people of Saint Louis City and County have with all of the wonderful first-class free offerings available to tourists. Our family went up to Hannibal and while Mark Twain Cave was excellent and worth the price, $16 per adult and $4 for kids is not exactly cheap for an hour tour. You can have an incredible whole weekend visit in Saint Louis for free.

Maybe we should think about adding free touristy attractions at BPV, for example cool interactive displays about the nature of downtown development, interpretation of the filled-in Lake DeWitt, time capsules of what life was like in 05,06,07,07,09,10,11,12,13.....27,28,29,30. Maybe even a theme park ride. It could be funded with the $3 million a year that Cards are supposedly having to pay beginning in '14.
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PostAug 10, 2011#102

I coudln't agree more that Stifel buying 501 Broadway and bringing their bank and trust operations downtown is a great development for the city and the neighborhood.

As for BPV: Would it be so bad if it were modeled on Cupples Station? Why not fill it with 5 to 7 story buildings with stree level retail? Cupples Station has taken its time getting pulled together (as most St. Louis developments do), but it seems to be a model that has succeeded in attracting business to downtown. The idea that there has to be a major tower anchoring the site has failed twice now. Steadily and consistantly building out 5 to 7 story buildings would be much better than continuing to watch BPV put all of its eggs in one basket only to be jilted. There are a half dozen major office towers within two blocks of the BPV site, and there's really no need for another. It doesn't need some giant landmark to pull people in, it already has that in Busch.
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PostAug 10, 2011#103

As for a soccer stadium. Really? We can do better. This site needs some density. If not, just wait on it.
I don't get this? On one hand you say that there isn't demand for retail/entertainment and likely won't be for a long time. But then you say there should be density and then that we should just wait on it. Washington Ave/Laclede's Landing is the STL entertainment district and MX is putting in significant retail soon - plus movie theater, blues museum, etc. etc. So entertainment/restaurants/retail will likely never work here - especially at the scale needed for density. So what's the alternative? Office space? Hotels? Residential? Why not take half of it for a soccer stadium? you still have a significant footprint of vacant land in a downtown with little demand for any development. All that said, yes, the MLS team appears to be a pipe dream.
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PostAug 10, 2011#104

Wabash, you should check out the old BPV thread where there rendering of previous versions of the project. In its oldest incarnations, the plan was basically an extension of the “Cupples model” throughout the area. Given everything that has come and gone since, going back to the original idea holds a lot of appeal. Downtown as a whole (not just the Cards and Cordish) have had difficulty attracting the anchor office tenants necessary to build the office towers many hoped would cover the site (and with the economy residential is a pipe dream).

Building 4-8 story buildings throughout the area would foster a phased approach to development that could be both flexible and successful. No longer do you need an anchor tenant who will take up 200,000 square feet or more, but rather can build off of the numerous small tenants who could fill up space one building at a time (and let’s face it many of the firms that downtown is losing now are not the “big boys” but the small and medium size support service and professional firms who are not going to drop big bucks on a HQ building of their own). This approach would ensure that as new retail/restaurant space is added so too is office space and the workers needed to ensure success.

A soccer stadium would be a waste in this location. With the stadium, the east and west parking garages and the numerous 60s, 70's and 80's office buildings which dot the surounding blocks, downtown south of Market is already a deadzone for the type of pedestrian activity that makes a downtown thrive. Adding another supper block development that is used a handful of times per year is a great way to ensure the area remains dead.
 
 
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PostAug 10, 2011#105

"Adding another supper block development that is used a handful of times per year is a great way to ensure the area remains dead."

In general, I agree with this, but see no demand for the walkable infill we all want here.
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PostAug 10, 2011#106

There IS demand. Stifel, Peabody, Centene, and a law firm all had significant interest. However the developer is holding the development up by demanding a risk free development.
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PostAug 10, 2011#107

I think we need to be more specific on what the market does and does not support at this site (and downtown as a whole).

 

The visions that Cordish/the Cards put out there of 30+ story buildings filling the site anchored by major local employers are simply not going to happen. Even a pure Cordish development (1-3 story buildings filled with tourist oriented restaurants/retail and event spaces) is not feasible over the long term given the utter lack of demand throughout downtown for ground floor space (clearly a Union Station 2.0 at best here and the City should not be subsidizing the destruction of its few organically developed entertainment areas). New construction of residential is out of the picture as well.

 

Downtown, however, has had success luring small to medium size professional, creative, and service firms when existing buildings are rehabilitated to provide the top of the line features necessary support these firms. Building out 6 standard city blocks (90,000 sf a floor) of 4-8 story buildings right now would not be feasible. With additional subsidy (which due to the importance of the site, the City might be willing to provide), Cordish and the Cards, if willing to take the project block by block (or even half block by half block) could find commitments sufficient to develop a “Cupples modern” over the course of a decade.

 

The question to ask is if it is going to take a decade or more to build out the site with the quality walkable dense development the area deserves, should the City wait on this or jump on the first opportunity that presents itself. I say wait, but that is only because once the City commits to an anti-urban development (like a soccer stadium) on the site, it will be 20 to 30 years before the City has another shot at “doing it right” while allow itself to only become more obsolete and less competitive in the intervening years.

 
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PostAug 10, 2011#108

Bravo, Saint Louis Business Journal! Bravo!

All the shame in a simple slideshow. Ah, memories of renderings past...
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... lpark.html
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PostAug 10, 2011#109

gone corporate wrote:Bravo, Saint Louis Business Journal! Bravo!

All the shame in a simple slideshow. Ah, memories of renderings past...
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... lpark.html
The part that is tough to stomach in my opinion is that I believe the original renderings really hit the mark in termms of what should be built in the southest corner, residential/hotel towers overlooking Busch Stadium.

Maybe with Stifel moving on they can go back to the fact that the latest proposed office tower should at least move over to the southwest corner and keep the prime location for new residential
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PostAug 10, 2011#110

downtown2007 wrote:There IS demand. Stifel, Peabody, Centene, and a law firm all had significant interest. However the developer is holding the development up by demanding a risk free development.
Can they split up the land and sell it individually to firms to build there? It may look a little more piecemeal, but perhaps something would actually get done. Maybe the city can still offer to pay for the road and lighting and stuff to make companies more likely to come.

Since they hired Cordish to do this are they now stuck with Cordish?

PostAug 10, 2011#111

One thing that's interesting about that slideshow is that the plan changed from $880 million to $550 million as the potential tenants began pulling out. Fortunately, it sounds like most of the tenants stayed Downtown.

I still think it would work better if they tried to develop one building at a time, if office buildings are the key attraction here. At least something would be built.

PostAug 10, 2011#112

Roger Wyoming wrote:
stlcardsblues1989 wrote: Power and Light might be busier if Sprint Center had a sports team....

The Link and Crown Center and Union Station were great as well, though we did most of the stuff in it after a couple of days. Downtown Kansas City feels smaller than Downtown St. Louis, and feels less busy as well. Of course, the metro is also smaller in general.

Unfortunately, I haven't been to a lot of the tourist things in Downtown, like CityGarden, yet. When we visit St. Louis, it's usually for a game, and usually we drive home the same night. It's been a long time since I've been to St. Louis as a tourist with time to kill. I was a tourist in KC last month. As a tourist in KC I had a lot of fun, but it wasn't any better than St. Louis in my mind.
Re: Sprint Center, I understand that their bookings are excellent and a sports team really wouldn't help as it would take away from these other events.... a team would be more of a status thing as opposed to actual attendance increase. (I guess landing a sucky team might even hurt overall attendance.)

Re; tourism, it really is amazing what genorosity the people of Saint Louis City and County have with all of the wonderful first-class free offerings available to tourists. Our family went up to Hannibal and while Mark Twain Cave was excellent and worth the price, $16 per adult and $4 for kids is not exactly cheap for an hour tour. You can have an incredible whole weekend visit in Saint Louis for free.

Maybe we should think about adding free touristy attractions at BPV, for example cool interactive displays about the nature of downtown development, interpretation of the filled-in Lake DeWitt, time capsules of what life was like in 05,06,07,07,09,10,11,12,13.....27,28,29,30. Maybe even a theme park ride. It could be funded with the $3 million a year that Cards are supposedly having to pay beginning in '14.
I think the original plans called for the St. Louis Cardinals hall of fame and an aquarium. One or both of those might be good for families to see before or after games.

On a side note, according to Wiki, at Power & Light "The dress code includes a ban on bandanas, work boots, ripped or baggy clothing, shorts that fall below the knees, athletic jerseys, and chains." I would hope that would change at BPV, considering it's built around a ballpark. Although, when we ate at P & L nobody mentioned anything to us about our clothes, but we just ate at Chipotle's and then had Gelatto. I don't think either place was very upscale. My sister did point out that we saw many young women there dressed in low-cut tops and short skirts. I guess that doesn't bother Cordish.

Wiki does say that "Generally, however, Missouri does prohibit bars and restaurants from allowing patrons to leave the premises with unfinished open containers of alcohol." Apparently Cordish is trying to change that law. I'm not sure how you define "leaving the premises," but this summer we went to the game and walked back to our car and we passed Paddy O's. There were people on the sidewalk and around the restaurant with beers in their hands. I wonder how much this is enforced. Of course, this has been since 2005, but apparently the law Cordish pushed for only applies to KC.

Of course Cordish has had a lot of other PR nightmares the past few years
In the article, Power & Light officials said they pulled the plug on Jeff's set because the volume level threatened to blow out their speakers and Jeff's people refused to turn it down.
You would think their speakers would be powerful enough for a concert.
This one quote in Osterheldt's piece really made me cringe:

"My road manager walked up to me and said they were having problems with the music I was playing," Jazzy Jeff told me. "I played three more songs and he comes back. I knew something was wrong. They said I had to kick [MC] Skillz off the stage, change the format of the music I was playing or quit. They said if I continued playing they had 30 cops ready to come escort me offstage. So I stopped."
Towards the end of Osterheldt's piece, she writers that venue officials (who aren't named) say Jeff's set attracted "the wrong element."

The wrong element, eh?

Hmm.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/enterta ... distr.html
Cordish came under fire in 2004, when Fourth Street Live, a similar development in downtown Louisville, Kentucky, placed a ban on sports jerseys and backward baseball caps. The ACLU and a black minister denounced the dress code as biased.
Examples? Company officials misstate the cost of the Power & Light District by half a billion dollars. They claim to have received commitments that the city would protect the uniqueness of the district's "festival" liquor license, only to have city officials insist that no such promises were made.

I came across another lie watching the August 23, 2007, City Council meeting. Stephen Sparks, a lawyer the city hired to negotiate with Cordish, was explaining the ownership of the parking garages underneath the Power & Light District. Sparks said the city built the garages, which were to be free after 7 p.m., at Cordish's request. "They did not want to have patrons come and pay for parking," Sparks said.

Yet, four months later, Cordish announced that it wanted to collect $2 from each vehicle that pulled into the garages.
http://www.pitch.com/kansascity/kansas- ... id=2190629
The commercial entertainment cluster known for booting DJ Jazzy Jeff off stage and establishing dress codes many believe are discriminatory has once again infuriated the masses by starting a new policy that requires customers to pay a $10 cover charge just to enter the common area located between the restaurants and bars.

And get this: They're not accepting cash. You must have either a credit or debit card. No exceptions.
http://southkansascityobserver.blogspot ... ed-of.html

I realize that there's two sides to every story, but I'm beginning to wonder if Cordish really shoots itself in the foot on a regular basis. If Cordish had (as alleged) escorted Jeff off the stage because they didn't like hip hop, I would hope their attitude would be different at BPV. Could you imagine the backlash if they escorted someone like Nelly off of the stage, for any reason?

Now, this may just be a matter of Cordish having issues with the speakers and it may not be about race at all, but public perception is pretty powerful, and it certainly doesn't look good. The dress code and the cover charge issues don't make it sound any better.

We were at P & L on a Saturday night, but it was about sundown, not at 11 PM.
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PostAug 10, 2011#113

Dewitt sounds like such a fool.


“We did want (Stifel) to be in Ballpark Village,” he said, but in at least one way, Stifel’s withdrawal from the project “simplifies our task.”

“It was creating complexities in financing that we don’t have to deal with,” he said. “New office construction is just a challenging economic proposition in this environment. In some respects, it requires different financing than retail and entertainment.”




http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... b&page=all
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PostAug 10, 2011#114

stlcardsblues1989 wrote:On a side note, according to Wiki, at Power & Light "The dress code includes a ban on bandanas, work boots, ripped or baggy clothing, shorts that fall below the knees, athletic jerseys, and chains."

I have been to KCP&L many times... have always enjoyed it.

Dress Code: One time I was respectful told that I couldn't enter “KC Live” section of the Power and Light district (consisting of area under canopy or restaurants with access to the canopy area) because I was wearing "athletic shorts", the security guy apologized (because it was like 100 degrees) and offered several alternative suggestions of other establishments that were open to my attire. In talking to security guards – they generally only check IDs (upon entrance to the KC Live area) on weekend-nights and for special events; this is also when they have much stricter (selective?) enforcement of the dress code rules – I was told if I had come for lunch – I would not have been turned away. Either way - the rules area clearly displayed at every entrance and, from what I could tell, are enforced regardless of age, race etc. Frankly, I don't blame them for trying to keep it nice when it is busy as the environment is, generally speaking, “family friendly”.

Open Container ‘in public’: They made a huge deal out of it – but you can't open carry drinks on the street of downtown – they are only allowed in the more secured “KC Live”. In effect no different than any other watering hole with a patio except there are different individual restaurant establishments surrounding patio. Not a big deal if you ask me.

“Discriminatory practices”: KCP&L and Cordish have a long history of highly publicized issues. We were warned before P&L opened up, and after it opened up there was a period of time where stories of people (generally young black men) feeling debased was normal. The leaders of KC's black community used to picket outside the gates, but either someone changed or the freshness of that news story has worn off because I haven't heard about anything like that in a while.

Promises, Promises: No different than Casinos or any other entertainment firm, Cordish has done what they said they were going to do – Phase 1 including an unimpressive but functional office tower (H&R Block Headquarters – 17 stories) and a ‘unique’ entertainment district (same in every one of their developments), and they bring people downtown(but not delivering to the herculean level they initially promised).

Overall: You get what you pay for – and Cordish is in the business of bringing “family friendly” entertainment and a few new office cubicles to a previously failing or stagnant CBD.

Dewitt IS a fool... but one who brings the eastern side of the state good baseball. Try having the David Glass (Royals Owner) instead.
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PostAug 10, 2011#115

I'm not totally against dress codes, but they probably wouldn't work at BPV, considering many of the patrons would probably be going to the Cardinals game as well.

PostAug 11, 2011#116

But as the downturn dragged on, he said, it made less and less sense as a home for Stifel. Faced with the prospect of renting in an expensive, brand-new building, or buying its current one at a bargain price, Stifel chose to buy.

"We were both a financial partner and a tenant (in Ballpark Village), and the right hand told the left hand that the (new) building was not feasible in this environment," Kruszewski said. "It's a good opportunity for us."

It's a smart move, say local commercial real estate experts.
Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... z1Ug9QmFnb
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PostAug 14, 2011#117

Scratch all BPV plans and create a Chinatown. After all it used to be hone to Hop Ally and now that the China Hub is close to happening this would be much more interesting and a larger tourist draw year round.
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PostAug 14, 2011#118

downtown2007 wrote:Scratch all BPV plans and create a Chinatown. After all it used to be hone to Hop Ally and now that the China Hub is close to happening this would be much more interesting and a larger tourist draw year round.
I would say your first part has already happened with Stifel moving on. However, the second part of skratching Cordish of the list has to happen before you can create chinatown or anything else substantial.

Fortunately the ciyt isn't on the hook for an half emptry half built entertainment mall and maybe this will give Koman and/or someone else the initiative to go rescue the last Cupples warehouse or even add a little infill (thinking parking lot Koman bought to go along with his Cupples warehouse purchase) considering BPV's timeline is another couple of years out. Especially if DeWitt finally gets smart enough to dump Cordish.

As far as Chinese, it would be interesting to see if they would put some money into St. Louis Real Estate.
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PostAug 28, 2011#119

If this thing is ever built, I think one tenant should be Notifi Music Group, Ira Dewitt's independent music label. I wonder if they would consider moving their offices and studio from Brentwood to Ballpark Village. If this label is new to you, its because its only been around for a few years. Her strategy was to sign establish artist, though some past their "prime" to help get this thing started.

There is a notice of St. Louis hip hop/ R&B going on behind the scenes ...if you dont believe me, check out Prince Ea videos, espcially "backwards rapper" " the brain" and his I make smart cool movement. He has won many freestyle and MC contest awards. He recently graduated from UMSL with a Anthropology degree.

Here are some videos from the label.

Ginuwine's "Heaven" was shot in St Louis this year. You will see Sweetie Pie Restaurant in the video


Recently they signed St Louis' own HItman Holla. He was an all conference guard at UMSL this past year and I believe led the conference in scoring. He is also a battle rapper who recently came back from NY and is known as one of the best battle MCs in the nation along with two other St. Louisans, Aye Verb and Young Ill.


New Artist Lonny Bereal who wrote songs for Chris Brown, Keri HIlson, Kelly Rowland, and many more has a new video with over 100 thousand views


Last but not least, Johnny Gill, former member of New Edition, has a new video(less than two weeks old), a song he performed at the Missouri Black Expo last weekend
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PostSep 30, 2011#120

Since Stifel Nicolaus is out of the picture have they made the final call that this project is dead for good and that a parking lot is coming? I spoke with a friend the other day who works for a downtown Architecture firm and he said that there is talks of this coming back but besides his word that is all I heard in the last 7 months. Could they be waiting for the Arch + City + River project to take shape before they can attract other tenants? Interestingly enough I see that a large number of projects that the Cordish company is associated with is in the same position.
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PostSep 30, 2011#121

The simple answer is that they're waiting until the economy turns around - that is, companies want to located in new office space in downtown, retail wants to locate there and a bank will finance it all.
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PostSep 30, 2011#122

thedude wrote:Since Stifel Nicolaus is out of the picture have they made the final call that this project is dead for good and that a parking lot is coming? I spoke with a friend the other day who works for a downtown Architecture firm and he said that there is talks of this coming back but besides his word that is all I heard in the last 7 months. Could they be waiting for the Arch + City + River project to take shape before they can attract other tenants? Interestingly enough I see that a large number of projects that the Cordish company is associated with is in the same position.
Latest news I've heard is that it's still moving forward without Stifel. See:
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... ahead.html

As far as I can tell that's been the latest news on the subject.
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PostSep 30, 2011#123

kopper wrote:
thedude wrote:Since Stifel Nicolaus is out of the picture have they made the final call that this project is dead for good and that a parking lot is coming? I spoke with a friend the other day who works for a downtown Architecture firm and he said that there is talks of this coming back but besides his word that is all I heard in the last 7 months. Could they be waiting for the Arch + City + River project to take shape before they can attract other tenants? Interestingly enough I see that a large number of projects that the Cordish company is associated with is in the same position.
Latest news I've heard is that it's still moving forward without Stifel. See:
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... ahead.html

As far as I can tell that's been the latest news on the subject.
Translation: No high-rises...we'll be lucky to get something that resembles The Boulevard in Brentwood.
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PostSep 30, 2011#124

I guess there is no shame in taking small steps. I'll take any positive progress we can get. I really don't believe in the notion that too much retail will just cancel each other out. Actually I believe the opposite will happen if we do start with a mini version of the ballpark village other development will follow.
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PostSep 30, 2011#125

Cordish & the Cardinals should build modularly like Harper Court in Chicago. Start with a retail base, then stack on office floors as demand increases.

Here are some renderings of Harper Court.







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