My concern is whether they follow a formula that takes into account an emerging market need, rather than simply saying here is our catchment, without any regard for what already exists. I agree that adding residents and workers could allow such a development to thrive without hurting the locals, but it has to be done right. It doesn't seem that the City has enough of a backbone to make sure that all pans out for the best. Hopefully I am wrong.dredger wrote:Yes and no, Yes chains in BPV will put locals out of business if downtown doesn't continue to increase its residential populatin and office market remains flat. No, if you can bring in more residents and office workers then having a mix on both ends gives choices for people to stay downtown or actively seeks its value beyond a baseball game.zun1026 wrote:I would be ok with that, but chains often put locals out of business.Roger Wyoming wrote:I think that a grown Saint Louis will have/need chain stores and a logical place for them to congregate would be BPV. As long as there is a good street grid/urban form as well as high-rise condos and apartments in future phases then I'm fine with BPV having a chain flavor. People can have their choice in a vibrant city... nationally known businesses in BPV or a true flavor of Saint Louis outside the friendly confines of BBV.
I think what a lot of us are frustrated with at the end of the day is who DeWitt signed up to make this happen. Cordish knows only one thing and you can see exactly what they have developed from Baltimore to KC. In that respect, the economic metldown might have saved BPV from being a poorly built half filled entertainmnet mall.
What I hope for going forward is that Stifel is throwing a little more weight behind what gets developed and a little more active in seeking additional tenants with its owned varied clients and Cardinels have come to conclusion that in time that the value of an urban property is being able to go vertical. Otherwise your competing with the THF's of the world
zun1026, I agree in principle in your thoughts that the city needs to influence this development for a long term sustainable outcome even though we all disagree on what that will be. My desire is office space and new residential condo towers, that will take some time but it will support street level retail and specifically the desired entertainment part/chain rest without sucking everyone dry.
At the same time, I also believe the city has shown considerable backbone on this project when the Mayor and Darlene Green didn't provide city backed bonds. That is huge in a very fiscally challenging times, has allowed the city help smaller projects with tax abatements, and in the end will result in a better outcome overall.
At the same time, I also believe the city has shown considerable backbone on this project when the Mayor and Darlene Green didn't provide city backed bonds. That is huge in a very fiscally challenging times, has allowed the city help smaller projects with tax abatements, and in the end will result in a better outcome overall.
Is it true that based on the Terms of an agreement the Cardinals entered into with the city of St. Louis' and the Land Clearance for Redevelopment Authority (LCRA), the owners are responsible for developing two blocks of the six-block area that was cleared following the destruction of Busch Stadium in 2005. If the Cardinals have not completed the development by 2012, penalties of $3 million per year would kick in and could continue through 2031, or until $60 million is paid
I saw this as a comment on one of the biz journal articles and was wondering if this is true?
I saw this as a comment on one of the biz journal articles and was wondering if this is true?
- 5,433
Those penalties have been changed so many times I don't have the slightest idea of what the city has that is actually enforceable. Originally penalties were supposed to be assessed beginning in 2009, and when it became obvious no construction was going to take place anytime soon, those penalties were pushed back and modified multiple times. So the city has made it possible for the Cardinals to sit on that land all this time without collecting any penalties. I wonder if they're even collecting any taxes?thedude wrote:Is it true that based on the Terms of an agreement the Cardinals entered into with the city of St. Louis' and the Land Clearance for Redevelopment Authority (LCRA), the owners are responsible for developing two blocks of the six-block area that was cleared following the destruction of Busch Stadium in 2005. If the Cardinals have not completed the development by 2012, penalties of $3 million per year would kick in and could continue through 2031, or until $60 million is paid
I saw this as a comment on one of the biz journal articles and was wondering if this is true?
- 3,428
I went to the ballgame last night and saw Albert get his 2000th hit -- a clean double just inside the 3rd base line for a double. Getting to the ballpark, I drove past Mike Shannon's "The Outfield" bar and could easily see the new 360 bar on top of the Hilon. I started thinking -- maybe St. Louis City should consider a new disctrict around the stadium called "Baseball Village". Or "Busch City".
In other words, expand the "concept" of Ballpark Village to other blocks currenlty surrounding Busch Stadium. Take the tax breaks offered to Ballpark Village and offer them to the venues on the block just surrounding ballpark village and the stadium instead to get the equivalent of Ballpark Village built on these surrounding blocks. With the investments being made in The Outfield, 360 Bar, Patty-O's and others, it is clear that these businesses are not holding back waiting for Ballpark Village. The city shouldn't hold back anymore either in making breaks for more development on the blocks surrounding the old Ballpark Village site, which might be better suited for something else anyway some day. Entertainment/Amusement Park/Waterpark? Open air football stadium? Man-made winding canal like the one in Oklahoma City and coming to Scottsdale?
In other words, expand the "concept" of Ballpark Village to other blocks currenlty surrounding Busch Stadium. Take the tax breaks offered to Ballpark Village and offer them to the venues on the block just surrounding ballpark village and the stadium instead to get the equivalent of Ballpark Village built on these surrounding blocks. With the investments being made in The Outfield, 360 Bar, Patty-O's and others, it is clear that these businesses are not holding back waiting for Ballpark Village. The city shouldn't hold back anymore either in making breaks for more development on the blocks surrounding the old Ballpark Village site, which might be better suited for something else anyway some day. Entertainment/Amusement Park/Waterpark? Open air football stadium? Man-made winding canal like the one in Oklahoma City and coming to Scottsdale?
- 8,905
From what I hear this project will NEVER happen. Is this a surprise to anyone really?
- 11K
Right. I'd expect one or two office buildings and then eventually parking when the dev/Cards say that they just can't find funding for other development. It certainly isn't going to be built out all at once, or even at all, in the next decade.
I hear that they (they = cardinals inc) want it to happen; its just a planning issue. They know the newest rendering is lack luster but they had to show some sort of progress in order to get an extension. For BPV to happen, they would need to get a significant amount of tenants to sign on before construction. In this market, that's the only way to secure construction financing.
Pure speculation: Lets say Caterpillar decides to leave IL and STL is at the top of their list. I bet BPV would be their new HQ location and we'll probably see new renderings that favor the first renderings we saw when Centene was the major tenant.
Pure speculation: Lets say Caterpillar decides to leave IL and STL is at the top of their list. I bet BPV would be their new HQ location and we'll probably see new renderings that favor the first renderings we saw when Centene was the major tenant.
There's no chance of hell in this happening. Even if they did leave IL, they wouldn't move to STL, and wouldn't have a big fancy building. I used to work in Cat AB (the main HQ building) - it's one of the least ostentatious corporate HQ I've ever seen.stlien wrote: Pure speculation: Lets say Caterpillar decides to leave IL and STL is at the top of their list. I bet BPV would be their new HQ location and we'll probably see new renderings that favor the first renderings we saw when Centene was the major tenant.
From Building Blocks:
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... 0f31a.html
"Stifel says it'll buy 501 N. Broadway"
Another nail in the BPV coffin. I want to see the Cardinals get reamed for the full penalties and the city do anything in its power to get those tax credit dollars back. Eat me, Dewitt.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... 0f31a.html
"Stifel says it'll buy 501 N. Broadway"
Another nail in the BPV coffin. I want to see the Cardinals get reamed for the full penalties and the city do anything in its power to get those tax credit dollars back. Eat me, Dewitt.
- 641
Time for DeWitt to think outside the box. Here's a great idea: build an MLS Stadium on BPV and own a team, Billy-boy!
- 11K
^ Now, I really like that idea! Guess it would look tiny next to Busch though.
- 2,928
^^Genius idea! No idea how feasible it may be, but I love it.
- 641
It makes too much sense so it won't happen....but it does allow the DeWitt's to save face
- 453
Stifel's downtown investment is great news.... too bad Centene didn't come downtown. But my sense is that the next office tower to be built in the region -- whenever thay may be -- will be in BPV or somewhere else downtown and not in Clayton.
- 3,235
A soccer stadium on this site would be terrible.
Does it seem strange to anyone that numerous companies have expressed serious interest in this site but have all bailed? Maybe someone involved is making outrageous demands to companies interested.
Does it seem strange to anyone that numerous companies have expressed serious interest in this site but have all bailed? Maybe someone involved is making outrageous demands to companies interested.
That was my first thought, first and foremost having Stifel staying downtown and looking at +400,000 sf is a big boost of confidence any way you look at it. My other thought, their must be some serious backroom discussion with MK!Roger Wyoming wrote:Stifel's downtown investment is great news.... too bad Centene didn't come downtown. But my sense is that the next office tower to be built in the region -- whenever thay may be -- will be in BPV or somewhere else downtown and not in Clayton.
My other thought. Cordish must go!!
Cordish doesn't want to build this thing.
They've gone through the motions with a number of companies but haven't gotten anything done despite being the most subsidized project in the city's history. I suspect Dewitt became wise to this a long time ago, but can't publically admit this has been a colossal mistake and their agreement is likely subject to hefty termination fee.
Cordish won’t build this thing until all the risk is off the table. So it won’t get built.
They've gone through the motions with a number of companies but haven't gotten anything done despite being the most subsidized project in the city's history. I suspect Dewitt became wise to this a long time ago, but can't publically admit this has been a colossal mistake and their agreement is likely subject to hefty termination fee.
Cordish won’t build this thing until all the risk is off the table. So it won’t get built.
You know...The most recent news really allows the rest of downtown to "take root" and face additional competition within itself...Tho I still believe that the BPV development is aimed at a customer base that currently doesn't spend a lot of time and money downtown: local families...
I would love to see Cupples station become a "village" instead...And what's wrong with a soccer stadium on the BPV site necessarily? Maybe we could get new Kiener Garages with better design and street level interaction outta the deal??
I would love to see Cupples station become a "village" instead...And what's wrong with a soccer stadium on the BPV site necessarily? Maybe we could get new Kiener Garages with better design and street level interaction outta the deal??
- 284
The trouble with Cordish, I think, is that they're not really office developers, they're retail/"entertainment complex" people, and the economics just don't support a retail/entertainment project there right now.ostrich5 wrote:Cordish doesn't want to build this thing.
They've gone through the motions with a number of companies but haven't gotten anything done despite being the most subsidized project in the city's history. I suspect Dewitt became wise to this a long time ago, but can't publically admit this has been a colossal mistake and their agreement is likely subject to hefty termination fee.
Cordish won’t build this thing until all the risk is off the table. So it won’t get built.
Look at their projects. They're mostly big retail, and there really isn't that much demand for more big retail downtown right now. Just look at all the empty storefronts as is. Also, how much more are you really going to squeeze out of Cardinals fans (who are already buying $10 beers and pricier tickets at a new ballpark)? Who are you going to get down there the other 280 nights a year? Without cannibalizing the Landing, Washington Ave., Soulard, etc? So where's the market?
If you can't support retail as is, you've got to create demand for it. Best way to do that is to move jobs there. But the economics of building a new office tower right now are shot, too. As Stifel demonstrated today (and Peabody before them), it makes more sense to wring a better deal out of your current landlord than to pay extra for a shiny new building. So unless you're bringing in a whole new company, who's going to fill an office tower? And that level of economic development - landing office tower-sized fish who are new to St. Louis - isn't really what Cordish does. They build snazzy festival marketplaces with ESPN Zones and Hard Rock Cafes and the like. And St. Louis already has one of those. It's called Union Station. Awesome.
So I guess my point is, don't hold your breath. This problem isn't all Cordish's fault - it was a different world when they started down this road. But it's also hard to see how Cordish is going to be part of the solution. What needs to be done just isn't what they do.
As for a soccer stadium. Really? We can do better. This site needs some density. If not, just wait on it. If we must pursue the MLS pipe dream, I know a giant parking lot north of the EJ Dome that'd make a much better soccer site. I think they call it the Bottle District?
- 1,364
Whatever happens with BPV, I'm glad Downtown still seems to be doing well whether BPV gets built or not.
If BPV does get built, could that draw tenants away from other buildings? How many companies really demand their own Class A office tower? Do we not have class A buildings?
I'm just wondering if this BPV concept would actually be able to sustain itself financially if it ever does get off the ground, and what impact it will have on the rest of Downtown.
I'm just a little skeptical I guess. I know it's a bad economy right now. This thing seems like it would be good for Downtown. If so, I hope it gets built. But I'm glad that Downtown is progressing regardless.
If BPV does get built, could that draw tenants away from other buildings? How many companies really demand their own Class A office tower? Do we not have class A buildings?
I'm just wondering if this BPV concept would actually be able to sustain itself financially if it ever does get off the ground, and what impact it will have on the rest of Downtown.
I'm just a little skeptical I guess. I know it's a bad economy right now. This thing seems like it would be good for Downtown. If so, I hope it gets built. But I'm glad that Downtown is progressing regardless.
I've been to Power and Light. It was a nice area, and somewhat busy on a Saturday night. There were some nice restaurants and stuff. I wouldn't mind something like that in Downtown St. Louis, as long as it doesn't take away revenue from established businesses. Power and Light might be busier if Sprint Center had a sports team. I don't drink or go clubbing, though, so Power and Light didn't have as much appeal to me as it probably would to most people my age.thedude wrote:I have to say I agree with rawest1 and go have to refer to my previous statements. I think the point is that there is nothing wrong with Power and Light. As a city if we really oppose something similar to Power and Light then that explains everything and why STL as a city is falling behind. Honestly I'm not here to defend what they built in KC and don't really care since I can visit it any time.
The issue seems to be with Cordish and their commitment to the project? There has to be a way to keep people in Downtown after the game. I don't mean just the folks that go to the Landing or the one's that visit Washington Avenue. There has to be something next to the stadium. If getting rid of Cordish will get us a step closer to a solution then I'm all for it!
That gelatto place at Power and Light was great. It's the only gelatto I've ever had, but it was better than ice cream.
The Link and Crown Center and Union Station were great as well, though we did most of the stuff in it after a couple of days. Downtown Kansas City feels smaller than Downtown St. Louis, and feels less busy as well. Of course, the metro is also smaller in general.
Kauffman was nearly packed when we went (it was a Friday night with $1 hotdogs, $1 sodas, and fireworks after the game), and trying to get out was a nightmare, since you have to drive back to Downtown from the stadium. It made me appreciate St. Louis' urban stadiums even more.
Power & Light was nice enough, but we weren't there long, just long enough to eat dinner (at Chipotle's) and some gelatto and I took a lot of pictures. It is pretty, but it didn't seem to have a lot of character. It could have been anywhere. I can see why young people are attracted to it, but I wouldn't necessarily patronize it often.
Unfortunately, I haven't been to a lot of the tourist things in Downtown, like CityGarden, yet. When we visit St. Louis, it's usually for a game, and usually we drive home the same night. It's been a long time since I've been to St. Louis as a tourist with time to kill. I was a tourist in KC last month. As a tourist in KC I had a lot of fun, but it wasn't any better than St. Louis in my mind.
Power & Light did seem more artificial than a lot of Downtown St. Louis does, even though some of the buildings in Power & Light were older.
Adding 200+ workers to an area of downtown where the office market can best be desribed as stagnant is very positive (plus it sounds like they are moveing the b&t operations from creve coeur downtown as well). Given the high vacancy rates at other large office buildings nearby (500 broadway and 600 washington) the overflow of former 501 broadway tenants displaced by the growth of Stifel in the coming years has the potential to help stabilize these buildings and increase the employement density neded to make stuff like 600 Washington sucessful. The city needs to be proactive here in keeping these displaced firms downtown. The incentives for 600 Washington are a start, but more will be needed.
As for the BPV, the latest plans are underwhelming at best and downright detrimental at worst (removing the anchor tenant of one of the few full office buildings in northeastern downtown while also adding to the glut of retail/ restaurant space without providing the nessisary employment density). Seeing the current incarnation fail is better for downtown in the long run.
As for the BPV, the latest plans are underwhelming at best and downright detrimental at worst (removing the anchor tenant of one of the few full office buildings in northeastern downtown while also adding to the glut of retail/ restaurant space without providing the nessisary employment density). Seeing the current incarnation fail is better for downtown in the long run.