The happiest guy in the city is going to be him?
I guess we know for sure no one involved in this project reads this forum.
I guess we know for sure no one involved in this project reads this forum.
But in the video, they show both. So which is "what is currently proposed"?newstl2020 wrote:This is because they are using the old renderings. What they show in the rendering is not what is currently proposed.
You must have better hearing than me. I just watched it two more times with the volume cranked and didn't hear a phone going off. Are you sure it wasn't your own?newstl2020 wrote:Also, that video raised my blood pressure by at least a factor of 5. Was that serious? His phone went off during the interview. Talk about focus and commitment.
Sorry, you've lost me here.newstl2020 wrote:They also state they are aiming to develop two blocks firstnext to the stadium. This is even more of a travesty, as this means another one of the most prime blocks is not even going to have a tower, but low-rise retail on the whole thing. Jesus. The blatent disregard for potential and risk is absolutely eating me up.
- 8,907
I wouldn't assume anything in the pretty pictures or video to be anything more than pretty pictures and video. Slim chance the final product looks anything like it.
As far as I'm concerned Cordish needs to hit the road. I don't want anything like KC's Power and Light district built there.
As far as I'm concerned Cordish needs to hit the road. I don't want anything like KC's Power and Light district built there.
Just curious but what is wrong with Power and Light?moorlander wrote:I wouldn't assume anything in the pretty pictures or video to be anything more than pretty pictures and video. Slim chance the final product looks anything like it.
As far as I'm concerned Cordish needs to hit the road. I don't want anything like KC's Power and Light district built there.
- 11K
^ It's an entertainment district and something like that in STL would likely poach from Wash Ave and other places that have gone in over the course of the last few years.
- 2,386
1 - What is listed at the top of the 3rd page of this thread.kopper wrote:But in the video, they show both. So which is "what is currently proposed"?newstl2020 wrote:This is because they are using the old renderings. What they show in the rendering is not what is currently proposed.
You must have better hearing than me. I just watched it two more times with the volume cranked and didn't hear a phone going off. Are you sure it wasn't your own?newstl2020 wrote:Also, that video raised my blood pressure by at least a factor of 5. Was that serious? His phone went off during the interview. Talk about focus and commitment.
Sorry, you've lost me here.newstl2020 wrote:They also state they are aiming to develop two blocks firstnext to the stadium. This is even more of a travesty, as this means another one of the most prime blocks is not even going to have a tower, but low-rise retail on the whole thing. Jesus. The blatent disregard for potential and risk is absolutely eating me up.
2 - 2:33.
3 - They state they are developing the two blocks fronting Clark closest to the stadium in the center of the development. As they are only building the office tower initially, that means the other block will not have condos, or anything of height. It is a prime block with some of the best views of the stadium, and they are planning to use it for a block of retail that is going to be low rise as they did not state condos or additional office space not being built on the other block. This exemplifies my point that they are going to low ball this whole thing playing to the lowest common denominator.
^X2moorlander wrote:I wouldn't assume anything in the pretty pictures or video to be anything more than pretty pictures and video. Slim chance the final product looks anything like it.
As far as I'm concerned Cordish needs to hit the road. I don't want anything like KC's Power and Light district built there.
- 10K
+FREAKING+moorlander wrote:As far as I'm concerned Cordish needs to hit the road. I don't want anything like KC's Power and Light district built there.
I truly do not understand what's so bad about Cordish. I was just at the Power & Light district last weekend, and it was freaking awesome. We all had a blast.
It would take people away from WashsAve? Really?? Is our city really so pathetic that we can't support more than one entertainment district? And that's assuming they have in mind to make Ballpark Village into another Power/Light anyway, which I haven't really seen, just because it's the same developer.
It would take people away from WashsAve? Really?? Is our city really so pathetic that we can't support more than one entertainment district? And that's assuming they have in mind to make Ballpark Village into another Power/Light anyway, which I haven't really seen, just because it's the same developer.
- 549
Not meaning to be harsh, but if someone doesn't see the parallels to Power and Light or understand what's so wrong with Cordish... they clearly aren't paying attention. If you truly are interested in finding out what's wrong with the situation, the are hundreds of pages of discussion: http://nextstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... &hilit=bpv
I have to say I agree with rawest1 and go have to refer to my previous statements. I think the point is that there is nothing wrong with Power and Light. As a city if we really oppose something similar to Power and Light then that explains everything and why STL as a city is falling behind. Honestly I'm not here to defend what they built in KC and don't really care since I can visit it any time.
The issue seems to be with Cordish and their commitment to the project? There has to be a way to keep people in Downtown after the game. I don't mean just the folks that go to the Landing or the one's that visit Washington Avenue. There has to be something next to the stadium. If getting rid of Cordish will get us a step closer to a solution then I'm all for it!
The issue seems to be with Cordish and their commitment to the project? There has to be a way to keep people in Downtown after the game. I don't mean just the folks that go to the Landing or the one's that visit Washington Avenue. There has to be something next to the stadium. If getting rid of Cordish will get us a step closer to a solution then I'm all for it!
- 549
^There are many, many things wrong with Power and Light. An "urban" development whose design literally turns it's back on the city is simply wrong. But P&L has a whole pletheroa of other problems... and I bet you KC wishes it wasn't on the hook for those bonds.
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/l ... ing-extra-“They were supposed to make 100-percent of debt service and they’re not even close,” said (KC) Mayor Mark Funkhouser.
^Totally true. But remember that both before and after BPV gets off the ground, Cupples Station is right accross the street.thedude wrote:There has to be a way to keep people in Downtown after the game. I don't mean just the folks that go to the Landing or the one's that visit Washington Avenue. There has to be something next to the stadium.
- 453
If I did understand Junior's BPV video correctly, the complete street grid and infrastructure would be laid out as part of the first phase to accelerate future phases... did I catch that right? If this is the case, it should give some form of security that BPV wouldn't turn its back on the city.
Honestly I really think that this original plan is not that bad but of course it will not be anything like this.
http://www.cordish.com/sub.cfm?section=newdev
http://www.cordish.com/sub.cfm?section=newdev
- 2,929
If given the choice of building now or reforming the design plans, I'm ready to see this built as-is and right now.
I'll take it as BPV under the guise of Power&Light; while it could cannibalize some Downtown business, I think that the psychographic attention that it would draw overwhelmingly would come from attendees who aren't necessarily in Downtown for anything else. I'm thinking of families with children that would prefer to go to a Rawlings restaurant than Side Bar after a game. Meanwhile, the most important thing is the construction of new Class A office space, increased hotel presences, potentially high rise residential real estate, and street level retail, all garnering increased monies through taxation revenues to fund the City and all the programs it oversees, from police to schools to paving the roads.
Oh, and props again to Comptroller Green for not fully backing the stadium revenue bonds with the City's taxes. That's foresight. What KC has to deal with, we won't.
But in the interim, we've got six blocks of nothing. Half of it's a "softball field", where all the grass has burned after serving as landing zone for the Super Stallion 7-blade megacopter & Osprey V-STOL plane during Marine Week. The other half's parking.
Cordish should be retained to see this through, based on their designs.
They also need to pay their fines as layed out in the original contracts.
Q: This City has 28 alderpersons...
Do any of them have the cojones to seek collection of overdue fines from Cordish, or doing so with any backbone?
I'll take it as BPV under the guise of Power&Light; while it could cannibalize some Downtown business, I think that the psychographic attention that it would draw overwhelmingly would come from attendees who aren't necessarily in Downtown for anything else. I'm thinking of families with children that would prefer to go to a Rawlings restaurant than Side Bar after a game. Meanwhile, the most important thing is the construction of new Class A office space, increased hotel presences, potentially high rise residential real estate, and street level retail, all garnering increased monies through taxation revenues to fund the City and all the programs it oversees, from police to schools to paving the roads.
Oh, and props again to Comptroller Green for not fully backing the stadium revenue bonds with the City's taxes. That's foresight. What KC has to deal with, we won't.
But in the interim, we've got six blocks of nothing. Half of it's a "softball field", where all the grass has burned after serving as landing zone for the Super Stallion 7-blade megacopter & Osprey V-STOL plane during Marine Week. The other half's parking.
Cordish should be retained to see this through, based on their designs.
They also need to pay their fines as layed out in the original contracts.
Q: This City has 28 alderpersons...
Do any of them have the cojones to seek collection of overdue fines from Cordish, or doing so with any backbone?
- 2,386
First, thedude, the original plans are dead.
Second, roger, the city will be paying for all of the infrastructure, so I don't see why that provides the cardinals any incentive to finish the plan. Why would they be further inclined to build? They would not pay for any of that.
Second, roger, the city will be paying for all of the infrastructure, so I don't see why that provides the cardinals any incentive to finish the plan. Why would they be further inclined to build? They would not pay for any of that.
- 8,907
rawest1 wrote: It would take people away from WashsAve? Really?? Is our city really so pathetic that we can't support more than one entertainment district? And that's assuming they have in mind to make Ballpark Village into another Power/Light anyway, which I haven't really seen, just because it's the same developer.
Except the St. Louis area has numerous entertainment areas. Wash Ave, Landing, CWE, The Grove, the loop, Soulard, South Grand, Mid Town Alley/Midtown, Clayton, dogtown, Kirkwood, West Port, Grafton, Main Street St. Charles... That's a hell of a lot of variety if you're willing to venture out.
In my opinion Washington Avenue is infinitely "cooler" than the faux designed collection of national chains at P&L. And the reincarnation of Wash Ave is still in it's infancy.
P&L kinda reminds me of the Boulevard in RH. I just don't see that type of faux disney construction holding up over the years.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with P&L. Honestly, it's a great addition to downtown KC. I just don't think it's what we need at BPV. The Arena and AMC theatre I am envious of though.
Keep in mind that next to the Stadium we have Shannons, Paddy O's, BB's, Broadway Oyster Bar, Hooters, Old Rock House, Hot Shots, JBucks, Mercury, Kilroy's, and soon to be 360. Also within walkin distance is Soulard, Wash Ave, and the Landing.thedude wrote: The issue seems to be with Cordish and their commitment to the project? There has to be a way to keep people in Downtown after the game. I don't mean just the folks that go to the Landing or the one's that visit Washington Avenue. There has to be something next to the stadium. If getting rid of Cordish will get us a step closer to a solution then I'm all for it!
- 2,386
I have crushed these last two pages with negativity about this (which although founded IMO probably isn't the way to go about it).
Basically, I have lost all faith in the Cardinals (as developers) and didn't have any in Cordish from the start, and I wish there was a way to free these potential projects from their hostage. I feel like they have both embarassed the city and don't think they deserve future opportunities here. They got their new stadium (which they could have paid for) from our city in gratitude for their cultural contribution to the city. It is time to cut it at that.
I'm sure they tried, but sometimes you try and fail. They have failed. Miserably. Time for someone else to take a turn at the plate IMHO.
And yes, I realize that this does absolutely nothing. Just voicing (typing) my displeasure at the situation.
Basically, I have lost all faith in the Cardinals (as developers) and didn't have any in Cordish from the start, and I wish there was a way to free these potential projects from their hostage. I feel like they have both embarassed the city and don't think they deserve future opportunities here. They got their new stadium (which they could have paid for) from our city in gratitude for their cultural contribution to the city. It is time to cut it at that.
I'm sure they tried, but sometimes you try and fail. They have failed. Miserably. Time for someone else to take a turn at the plate IMHO.
And yes, I realize that this does absolutely nothing. Just voicing (typing) my displeasure at the situation.
- 453
my thought was that if the street grid gets built out appropriately future phases won't as easily be able to wall themselves off from the city than if left as is. but yes, I agree that we should have no faith in anything on this project.newstl2020 wrote: roger, the city will be paying for all of the infrastructure, so I don't see why that provides the cardinals any incentive to finish the plan. Why would they be further inclined to build? They would not pay for any of that.
Very well put.moorlander wrote:rawest1 wrote: It would take people away from WashsAve? Really?? Is our city really so pathetic that we can't support more than one entertainment district? And that's assuming they have in mind to make Ballpark Village into another Power/Light anyway, which I haven't really seen, just because it's the same developer.
Except the St. Louis area has numerous entertainment areas. Wash Ave, Landing, CWE, The Grove, the loop, Soulard, South Grand, Mid Town Alley/Midtown, Clayton, dogtown, Kirkwood, West Port, Grafton, Main Street St. Charles... That's a hell of a lot of variety if you're willing to venture out.
In my opinion Washington Avenue is infinitely "cooler" than the faux designed collection of national chains at P&L. And the reincarnation of Wash Ave is still in it's infancy.
P&L kinda reminds me of the Boulevard in RH. I just don't see that type of faux disney construction holding up over the years.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with P&L. Honestly, it's a great addition to downtown KC. I just don't think it's what we need at BPV. The Arena and AMC theatre I am envious of though.
To add, I talk to many residents from KC and many of them feel P&L is too exclusive. This could just be the demographic groups I talk to, but it seems most of them have already grown annoyed with P&L. Some of the businesses they once preferred are now out of business as a result of P&L. Plus, the city is struggling to pay the costs of developing P&L, at least that is what I am hearing.
Personally, I say create an overlay district and hope that the Cards sell off the land in groups of parcels over time. The resulting development will have a greater chance to succeed. Many of these large scale developments struggle because the economic assessments are often reliant on much guesswork. Let the site develop based on a plan that allows for more organic development! This is especially important if we consider that Downtown might not be able to support this much development over such a short period of time.
- 3,428
I agree that we don't need something just like P&L, an entertainment plaza surrounded by chain restaurants. But I could see a couple of outdoor dining restaurants -- ideally with local roots -- just as Del Pietros and others have started opening new venues in West County. And I could see St. Louis Live eventually replacing the Kiener Plaza amphitheater as the celebration venue for Cardi-Gras kickoff, playoff game rally's, and pre-game rock concerts.
We worry that downtown can't support more entertainment downtown, but I think a goal should be to get the county baseball crowd to show up early and stay late. That would be new people downtown. And more stuff downtown makes it an even more attractive place to live, which will increase downtown population.
And, although the metro area isn't booming like some, it has added nearly half a million people since I moved here, about the population of Oklahoma City, and I don't see that slowing down anytime soon.
![]()
We worry that downtown can't support more entertainment downtown, but I think a goal should be to get the county baseball crowd to show up early and stay late. That would be new people downtown. And more stuff downtown makes it an even more attractive place to live, which will increase downtown population.
And, although the metro area isn't booming like some, it has added nearly half a million people since I moved here, about the population of Oklahoma City, and I don't see that slowing down anytime soon.
- 453
I think that a grown Saint Louis will have/need chain stores and a logical place for them to congregate would be BPV. As long as there is a good street grid/urban form as well as high-rise condos and apartments in future phases then I'm fine with BPV having a chain flavor. People can have their choice in a vibrant city... nationally known businesses in BPV or a true flavor of Saint Louis outside the friendly confines of BBV.
I would be ok with that, but chains often put locals out of business.Roger Wyoming wrote:I think that a grown Saint Louis will have/need chain stores and a logical place for them to congregate would be BPV. As long as there is a good street grid/urban form as well as high-rise condos and apartments in future phases then I'm fine with BPV having a chain flavor. People can have their choice in a vibrant city... nationally known businesses in BPV or a true flavor of Saint Louis outside the friendly confines of BBV.
Yes and no, Yes chains in BPV will put locals out of business if downtown doesn't continue to increase its residential populatin and office market remains flat. No, if you can bring in more residents and office workers then having a mix on both ends gives choices for people to stay downtown or actively seeks its value beyond a baseball game.zun1026 wrote:I would be ok with that, but chains often put locals out of business.Roger Wyoming wrote:I think that a grown Saint Louis will have/need chain stores and a logical place for them to congregate would be BPV. As long as there is a good street grid/urban form as well as high-rise condos and apartments in future phases then I'm fine with BPV having a chain flavor. People can have their choice in a vibrant city... nationally known businesses in BPV or a true flavor of Saint Louis outside the friendly confines of BBV.
I think what a lot of us are frustrated with at the end of the day is who DeWitt signed up to make this happen. Cordish knows only one thing and you can see exactly what they have developed from Baltimore to KC. In that respect, the economic metldown might have saved BPV from being a poorly built half filled entertainmnet mall.
What I hope for going forward is that Stifel is throwing a little more weight behind what gets developed and a little more active in seeking additional tenants with its owned varied clients and Cardinels have come to conclusion that in time that the value of an urban property is being able to go vertical. Otherwise your competing with the THF's of the world