Notes from KC. The city obviously made the right move not guaranteeing the bonds. Also notice the blurb that thevresidential portion was eleminated from the P&L and would have created more foot traffic. Hopefully the Cardinals consider residential.
Talking about Ballpark Village. Is Cordish blowing hot air again? Apparently they are starting their long delayed project in San Francisco and it was mentioned that they would hope to start BPV this fall.
This fall, Cordish hopes to start construction on the St. Louis Ballpark Village project, beginning with an initial, $95 million phase. It will include more than 100,000 square feet of restaurants, bars and entertainment tenants, such as Cardinal Nation, a three-level restaurant with a local baseball theme that will have views of the ballpark. The development also will feature a concert stage and public events plaza.
Because of the recession, the St. Louis project has undergone some changes and is moving forward without a previously planned office anchor.
I'm personally no longer supportive at any level for this development. It has become another St. Louis Centre, another Union Station. If built, it will simply become another retail area that hardly integrates into the surrounding urban fabric. It will bring with it no new residents and no new office developments. Retail downtown is not growing and this will likely cause other retail across downtown to close as traffic shifts (temporarily) to Ballpark Village.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but history shows I'll likely be right.
^ kinda down the middle of the road in my opinion. Realistically this is about being a phased development going forward and the big part of getting it right is the street grid/layout of the phases, what can be added later and how would it be added. In that respect, I still think BPV in time can be something other than another Union Station or St. Louis Centre. If anything, a scaled down retail/entertainment section now will have been better then what was being pushed originally.
In the same breadth, Cordish is still involved any way you look at it
In the meantime, I would love to see a new residential tower rise, as downtownstl2020 noted in another thread, between the various Cupples warehouses just to show Cordish how it should be done in the first place and that their is a market for it.
metzgda wrote:I'm personally no longer supportive at any level for this development. It has become another St. Louis Centre, another Union Station. If built, it will simply become another retail area that hardly integrates into the surrounding urban fabric. It will bring with it no new residents and no new office developments. Retail downtown is not growing and this will likely cause other retail across downtown to close as traffic shifts (temporarily) to Ballpark Village.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but history shows I'll likely be right.
^This, unfortunately.
I am pretty convinced the Cardinals don't really know what they are doing, and I am absolutely convinced Cordish is completely out of touch with reality and may be the worst developer in America at this point.
An "Outdoor concert and entertainment area?" Really? City Garden (which has garnered NATIONAL awards for urban design, mind you) is literally a block away, as well as Kiener Plaza which is potentially set for a major redesign/upgrade in the next few years as well. I honestly wonder whether anyone for Cordish has ever set foot in the city of St. Louis.
That is not hyperbole, I seriously do not think anyone for Cordish has set foot in the city.
Someone needs to force change in the design before they start building. If they break ground this year on the first portion and it duplicates existing amenities at a WORSE QUALITY, it is going to fail miserably and lead to the death of the entire project. I am astounded this crap has gone on for this long.
^^ Either existing venue (City Garden or Kiener Plaza) would be awesome as they are now (or with slight modifications - also under arch grounds or near soldiers memorial) but the difference is programming. When you sign Cordish on you get them for both their roles: in "role 1" Cordish is a builder/developer, in "role 2" it is a promoter... bringing in a variety of programs etc. As much as people complain about the development aspect, Cordish does bring in a continuous and varied stream or entertainment. Unless someone else is hired to schedule and pay for weekly "free" concerts, the existing venues will exist as they are now - no concerts etc. This was one problem with the original Kiener plan... no one actively brought in acts to fill the stage on a regular basis and therefore it sat empty. Maybe Cordish can be hired to manage Kiener Plaza and line up acts?
Cordish, as a builder, builds one type of development: KCP&L = example. This is the only type they know how to build; it has "worked" for them in the past and will keep doing the same uninspired thing until it stops working ("worked" to them is defined by them still being contacted to do more similar developments).
The city still has leverage - tie TIF to residential and office square footage in addition to restaurant/commercial or overall square footage or spending.
If they break ground this year on the first portion and it duplicates existing amenities at a WORSE QUALITY, it is going to fail miserably and lead to the death of the entire project. I am astounded this crap has gone on for this long.
I don't believe that it will fail. The space will be new, and once something like this is announced, it automatically becomes the greatest thing the city has ever seen. I can already see the tacky faux brick. Mayor Slay has already said that he's glad that nothing has happened here [with Cordish] because of the debt K.C. is in. Why would they be allowed to continue?
^^That's exactly it. The last thing this city needs is a damn half-ass concert promoter in charge of the biggest development ever in the history of the city.
Oh great - so Cordish gets to canabalize the even yet-to-be-built Kiener Plaza and the just-built City Garden... One might just begin to feel as though there's no real plan for this city. Might.
Cordish is a big problem, they are cash extraction machines with a pretty portfolio, see the P&L district is KC as classic example of duping a city (granted KC believed in snake oil)
Heavy duty on residential and/or office with some light and appropriate retail and whatever...perhaps a bar. Anything else like an "entertainment district" and I would be totally against it.
beer city wrote:Cordish is a big problem, they are cash extraction machines with a pretty portfolio, see the P&L district is KC as classic example of duping a city (granted KC believed in snake oil)
Granted, I'm rather ignorant on the matter, but I'm curious, specifically why does everyone here treat P&L like it was some disastrous debacle? I know the city's still working on paying it off, but from what I understand it has steadily gained tenants since being built, and I love going out there. Every time I go I have a blast, as does everyone I talk to. I thought it was well-done, and it definitely gave KC's downtown vitality a shot in the arm, based on what I've heard from KC's residents, and what I've seen.
Actually P&L in KC is sucking the life out of the rest of downtown there which has yet to go anywhere. P&L is not filled and is down on tenants. It also has lost some bigger tenants since opening. The district is more of a nightclub area on weekends, although does draw a lunch crowd on nice days. The district is sucking huge dollars out of the city. P&L has also not met its potential or expectations.
It simply is a glorified outdoor mall make believe neighborhood.http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 94502.html
I don't want that here. I am so glad downtown St. Louis is a true and real district/neighborhood that has redeveloped and identified itself as a real city/urban district without having to have a Ballpark Village.
Today - a Ballpark Village needs to simply focus on residential, hotels, some restaurants and maybe some stores. Moreso, sell the prime real estate to a company that wants to develope it into their headquarters.
KCP&L isn't anywhere near FULL most nights. Weekends and nice weather will bring decent crowds... but the only time it is 'full' is when there is a large planned event (concert etc).
Nationwide, downtowns have been re-surging for the past 10-15 years. Perception is that KCP&L hasn't added any development that wouldn't have otherwise happened, or worse, has stolen development from other areas, most egregiously the plaza, but also crossroads, westport and river market. KCP&L opened in 2007-2008, so whether slowed growth in other areas of the city is due to P&L opening or the the recession, its hard to tell.
Then there are the accusations that the districts' dress code is racist/discriminatory against "urban youth". KC is a city where over 40% of people are minorities, how would this fly in STL, a city which is over 50% minority?
I think the biggest vexation was the difference between what Cordish promised and what was delivered:
They promised multiple residential high rises, the first of which was to be a 38-story 350 unit tower, which was never started (and probably never will be).
They (and AEG) promised if the city built an area that the management team would land a pro team team... now they have a 5+ year old arena with little hope of ever getting a tenant (no longer brand new to attract a transplant team).
They were promised a 'vibrant neighborhood' (images of the plaza on crack were brought to mind) and, as has been said on here ad nauseum, they got a cheap looking suburban mall knock off which is fairly dead most of the time.
The city was promised added tax revenue, more than enough to pay its own bond obligations. They got a district that has yet to meet anything resembling their tax projections... leaving the city on the hook for millions of dollars a year.
KC did get a dense & unique 'attraction' which is tourist friendly. It has numerous stores (including a Jos A Bank and a grocery store) which weren't downtown prior to the development. They also got a mid-rise office tower housing H&R block's headquarters (17-story - not new to KC, just consolidated from other buildings). I went to lunch at P&L occasionally and took out-of-town guests there... it isn't horrible. KC was promised the stars and got a lot less, and are fiscally on the hook to pay for the district and the arena to boot.
Cordish, as a company, builds entertainment districts. As matguy said, Ballpark Village should be about residential and office high rises first. Those are the developments which get and keep people in an area. After those are in place, hotels restaurants and retail stores (entertainment district if you will) should follow in measured amounts.
This is one thing you have to give Slay and the city government HUGE props on. Cordish is an absolute disaster. The entire metro area should be ecstatic that these crappy developers did not get what they wanted.
^I couldn't agree more...It ultimately is a mystery to me why this has not gone forward given the region's general love of sports and the Cardinals specifically...Most likely a function of stagnate job growth, too much supply, and lack of support for the CBD among local business leadership...Ultimately, the Cardinal baseball organization is not a commerical developer by design or expertise, so it's hard for me to get too negative on ownership about what we have so far next to Busch Stadium...
^To an extent. But I think a lot of us could agree that new real estate with views of the ballpark could be filled rather easily.
As we saw with Pujols contract (or lack there of), Dewitt is a frugal, shrewd businessman. He's going to wait to build anything on ballpark village until it is guaranteed to be occupied. Can't really blame him, but I think it would safe to take some risk and build now with the hope to fill space in the future.
pat wrote:^To an extent. But I think a lot of us could agree that new real estate with views of the ballpark could be filled rather easily.
As we saw with Pujols contract (or lack there of), Dewitt is a frugal, shrewd businessman. He's going to wait to build anything on ballpark village until it is guaranteed to be occupied. Can't really blame him, but I think it would safe to take some risk and build now with the hope to fill space in the future.
I don't think he's a real estate developer. He owns a baseball team. All he likely cares about in regards to BPV is eventually meeting the minimum commitment. Doubt he's in much of a rush.
RobbyD wrote:Most likely a function of stagnate job growth, too much supply, and lack of support for the CBD among local business leadership...Ultimately, the Cardinal baseball organization is not a commerical developer by design or expertise, so it's hard for me to get too negative on ownership about what we have so far next to Busch Stadium...
newstl2020 wrote:So I came across these pictures from Petco Park in San Diego. I cannot believe there are not 3 LARGE buildings under construction in BPV right now.
If you cannot sell this office view:
Or this balcony view:
You suck at your job.
Views may sell residential property, but not office. Not in the same way anyways. Location, cost, amenities, practicality sells office space. And given that STL currently has a glut of moderately priced office space all over the metro area, a developer building large office spaces would take a bath on the development. The only way new office space is being built in STL (not rehabbed - built) is if a major company wants their own building downtown.
