urbanSTL

I trust the contrasting window panels will look better in real life. Those renders look a bit heavy-handed. 

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/bus ... 8e32a.html

The updated plans for the corner of South Central Avenue and Forsyth Boulevard now include a 20-story, 245-room hotel, a jazz club and restaurant with outdoor space. Developers Midas and Green Street Real Estate Ventures also plan to build a parking garage and rooftop bar and terrace. .. They've also scrapped plans to build on neighboring 7808 Forsyth, according to the developers' application with the city of Clayton.



Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

Dead.
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... ce=twitter

NHampton wrote: ↑

May 22, 2024

Dead.
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... ce=twitter

So lost World News all for nothing...bummer. Why so often do we see carts getting put before the horse...time and time again, developers don't even get through the whole approval and financing component...and local businesses get lost, because *maybe* it could happen...so obnoxious. I wish the rules around vacating businesses were changed. Now you have nearly an entire city block of abandoned human-scale commercial space.

SRQ2STL wrote: ↑

May 22, 2024

NHampton wrote: ↑

May 22, 2024

Dead.
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... ce=twitter

So lost World News all for nothing...bummer. Why so often do we see carts getting put before the horse...time and time again, developers don't even get through the whole approval and financing component...and local businesses get lost, because *maybe* it could happen...so obnoxious. I wish the rules around vacating businesses were changed. Now you have nearly an entire city block of abandoned human-scale commercial space.

100% agree on this. Super annoying to have all those move out for nothing

Ahem, Mother’s Fish is still open.

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

May 22, 2024

Ahem, Mother’s Fish is still open.

Sometimes apparently. I’ve tried to go for lunch multiple times and no one has been there or the person there says they aren’t open.

Bigger issue to me is these business left and it isn’t like anyone else is going to be in a hurry to invest to open something else up when you don’t know if someone else is going to come along and propose something new so you might be out in a couple years. You are going to pick a spot with more stability. So these storefronts might stay abandoned.

Clayton is dead- its down the same % of workers as downtown stl from covid but it doesnt have anything else going for it.  Centene being the catalyst that head to its down fall 

Idk if it’s dead, but it’s certainly boring.

In many downtowns, office workers can turn to an athletic club, a show (stage or screen), or a sporting event to unwind after a day of work without leaving downtown. None of those are available in Clayton (each is available in DT StL). Other than the options at Wydown-Hanley (which are not walkable from DT Clayton) Clayton’s food and bar scene is cheeks. It’s the Crossing and Pastaria, that’s it.

At 5, all of DT Clayton climbs into its SUV and sits in traffic for twenty minutes to move 3 miles because DT Clayton is terribly disconnected.

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

stlokc wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

We are regulars at oceana and five Star for happy hour. They are usually pretty busy. Herbies seems to be also but we don’t go there as often. Jinzen seems to be popular as well.

JP fields is no more though since the building incident.

But either way my argument more is to I hate seeing businesses get pushed out to impending development and then that development gets scrapped and now you basically have 2 streets of abandoned store fronts that wouldn’t be if the proposal hadn’t pushed them out. I don’t care if it’s downtown, Clayton, kirkwood, or Chesterfield. It’s sh*tty to see.

J Shank, I agree with you 100%. 

stlokc wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

Full-Service Restaurants from 
Jan-Sept each year (Q4 out later this month)

Clayton 
2019: $44,351,397 
2023 $46,061,417
 +3.86% 

St. Louis 
2019: $269,925,278 
2023: $333,003,454 
+23.37%

DB, thank you for this. But please don't misunderstand me. I was not attempting to draw a comparison - positive, negative or otherwise - between Downtown St. Louis and Clayton in my post. I was merely suggesting that I have found Clayton to be more lively than what was written about it above. 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Clayton is dead- its down the same % of workers as downtown stl from covid but it doesnt have anything else going for it.  Centene being the catalyst that head to its down fall 

Clayton is not dead. 801 and Capital had record years. Napoli, Pastaria, Crossings, Louie, Wrights, Akar, etc are all doing extremely well. Centene Tower, Emerson Tower, new Commerce Tower, etc are all filled up. Hotels getting built. Apartments and condos are being delivered.

kbshapiro wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Clayton is dead- its down the same % of workers as downtown stl from covid but it doesnt have anything else going for it.  Centene being the catalyst that head to its down fall 

Clayton is not dead.  801 and Capital had record years.  Napoli, Pastaria, Crossings, Louie, Wrights, Akar, etc are all doing extremely well.  Centene Tower, Emerson Tower, new Commerce Tower, etc are all filled up.  Hotels getting built.  Apartments and condos are being delivered.

everyone should be having record yet by default do the increased menu prices over the last 3 years. but the numbers are what they are, inflation adjusted Clayton restaurants as whole are running 16-18% behind 2019. 

dbInSouthCity wrote:

stlokc wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

Full-Service Restaurants from 
Jan-Sept each year (Q4 out later this month)

Clayton 
2019: $44,351,397 
2023 $46,061,417
 +3.86% 

St. Louis 
2019: $269,925,278 
2023: $333,003,454 
+23.37%

A couple of considerations I would point out:

1) Downtown Clayton is maybe 10% the size of DT St Louis sq mileage wise. So Clayton stacks up pretty well in terms of full term dining activity relative to DT STL.

2) I think looking at the pre period would be helpful as well. I can’t say for sure but I think DT Clayton was pretty healthy in terms of growth in the years leading up to 2019, whereas DT STL was more sluggish, so their growth is relative.

3) You just included full term dining, but I think Clayton is fairly healthy in terms of more casual dining as well

Overall I think Clayton and St Louis have similar challenges. Clayton feels denser/more active to me, but DT STL has a lot of sports and entertainment options Clayton doesn’t.

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote:

stlokc wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

Full-Service Restaurants from 
Jan-Sept each year (Q4 out later this month)

Clayton 
2019: $44,351,397 
2023 $46,061,417
 +3.86% 

St. Louis 
2019: $269,925,278 
2023: $333,003,454 
+23.37%

A couple of considerations I would point out:

1) Downtown Clayton is maybe 10% the size of DT St Louis sq mileage wise. So Clayton stacks up pretty well in terms of full term dining activity relative to DT STL.

2) I think looking at the pre period would be helpful as well. I can’t say for sure but I think DT Clayton was pretty healthy in terms of growth in the years leading up to 2019, whereas DT STL was more sluggish, so their growth is relative.

3) You just included full term dining, but I think Clayton is fairly healthy in terms of more casual dining as well

Overall I think Clayton and St Louis have similar challenges. Clayton feels denser/more active to me, but DT STL has a lot of sports and entertainment options Clayton doesn’t.

Clayton is basically St. Louis' uptown business district. The city would be benefitting from it's tax revenue under normal circumstances, but St. Louis has one o f the weirdest municipal governance systems in the entire country. I think overall it helps the region when both of these disricts are healthy and growing. I'd be all for a manhattanization of the central corridor from the Arch to I-170. 

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote:

stlokc wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

Full-Service Restaurants from 
Jan-Sept each year (Q4 out later this month)

Clayton 
2019: $44,351,397 
2023 $46,061,417
 +3.86% 

St. Louis 
2019: $269,925,278 
2023: $333,003,454 
+23.37%

A couple of considerations I would point out:

1) Downtown Clayton is maybe 10% the size of DT St Louis sq mileage wise. So Clayton stacks up pretty well in terms of full term dining activity relative to DT STL.

2) I think looking at the pre period would be helpful as well. I can’t say for sure but I think DT Clayton was pretty healthy in terms of growth in the years leading up to 2019, whereas DT STL was more sluggish, so their growth is relative.

3) You just included full term dining, but I think Clayton is fairly healthy in terms of more casual dining as well

Overall I think Clayton and St Louis have similar challenges. Clayton feels denser/more active to me, but DT STL has a lot of sports and entertainment options Clayton doesn’t.

Can’t remember on top of my head but self service restaurants account for more in sales in STL than full service and then there is also “drinking establishments”. I’ll have all this once the state gets its sh*t together and posts full 2023 data.

dbInSouthCity wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote: Full-Service Restaurants from 
Jan-Sept each year (Q4 out later this month)

Clayton 
2019: $44,351,397 
2023 $46,061,417
 +3.86% 

St. Louis 
2019: $269,925,278 
2023: $333,003,454 
+23.37%

A couple of considerations I would point out:

1) Downtown Clayton is maybe 10% the size of DT St Louis sq mileage wise. So Clayton stacks up pretty well in terms of full term dining activity relative to DT STL.

2) I think looking at the pre period would be helpful as well. I can’t say for sure but I think DT Clayton was pretty healthy in terms of growth in the years leading up to 2019, whereas DT STL was more sluggish, so their growth is relative.

3) You just included full term dining, but I think Clayton is fairly healthy in terms of more casual dining as well

Overall I think Clayton and St Louis have similar challenges. Clayton feels denser/more active to me, but DT STL has a lot of sports and entertainment options Clayton doesn’t.

Can’t remember on top of my head but self service restaurants account for more in sales in STL than full service and then there is also “drinking establishments”. I’ll have all this once the state gets its sh*t together and posts full 2023 data.

I’m sure self service and drinking establishments are showing similar levels of growth. I’m merely pointing out that Clayton’s restaurant spend is pretty strong compared to DT STL, relative to geographic size. Plus, DT STL’s growth rate is high in large part due to the lackluster growth numbers in the years prior to 2019.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I grabbed lunch today in Clayton and it defiantly passed the eye test. Lots of people out walking about.

I also think comparing downtown and Clayton is a bit silly. While they both have high rises, and an infuse of workers during the day, they are pretty different. People say Clayton is boring or dead after about 6 like that’s a bad thing. I don’t think it is a bad thing. It’s not an entertainment district and I don’t think has much interest in being one. It’s surrounded by single family homes on almost all sides of a fairly small business district. I’d guess most people want it to be quiet and “boring/dead” at night. Enough restaurants for lunch,  happy hour, and dinner, with a couple later open spots for the people who do want to stay out late whether that be hotel guests or residents.

Downtown can be the all hours of the day place that has entertainment and sports. That’s not Clayton’s thing nor should it really be their thing.

stlokc wrote: ↑

May 23, 2024

Capital Grill. Tony's. 801 Chop. 801 Fish. Herbie's. Louie's Wine Dive. Oceano. Napoli. JP Fields. J. McGraugh's. 

I agree that Downtown Clayton is struggling but the dining/drinking options are a bit more robust than you present above. 

Just because there are options, doesn’t mean they are good.

Capital is not good.

Tony’s is stuck in the past. It’s the restaurant your grandpa still thinks is the best in town because his mind never left the 70s.

The 801s are solid, but are we really hanging our hat on a chain steak and seafood restaurants?

Herbies is bad.

Napoli is overpriced for what it is and the company is trash.

Louie’s is another forgettable, overpriced chain that has lost its luster.

Oceano bistro is fine.

Fields doesn’t exist anymore and it was gross.

J Mcgraugh’s is fine but also not in really in DT Clayton.