urbanSTL

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:02 PM - 2 days ago

I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

In a related point, if we all just see downtown Clayton as the regions central business district as opposed to DT STL , we're doing fine with relocations to the CBD. 

• Emerson: Ferguson → Emerson Tower, 8027 Forsyth (moved in Feb 2025, ~400 employees)
• FleishmanHillard: Downtown (200 N. Broadway) → Clayton (announced Oct 2024, ~40,000 sq ft)
• Energizer: Town and Country → Forsyth Centre, 8235 Forsyth (Nov 2024)
• Advantage Solutions: Irvine, CA → Commerce Bank Tower, 8001 Forsyth (2024)

• Polsinelli: 100 S. Fourth St. → Centene Centre, 7676 Forsyth (2024)
• Armstrong Teasdale: Metropolitan Square → Centene Plaza, 7700 Forsyth (2010)
• Husch Blackwell: Laclede Gas Building → Clayton (2009); now in Commerce Bank Tower
• Stinson: Downtown → Centene Plaza (around 2010)
• Lathrop & Gage (now Lathrop GPM): Downtown → Clayton (2011)
• Kohn, Shands: U.S. Bank Plaza → Shaw Park Plaza (2010)

 
We urbanists -- and I'm looking right in the mirror -- really need to start considering downtown Clayton as a *strong* regional asset.  The region is better for having DT Clayton as it minimizes sprawl and keeps our regional biz assets more concentrated.

(now, I will say that if I had a magic wand and could make STL part of STL County and have DT Clayton disappear, I'd 100% do it. of course!!  DT STL and the region as a whole would be so much stronger.  DT STL so much closer to DT Cinci, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, etc. but, just trying to deal with reality and facts of our region in 2026.  DT Clayton is only getting stronger as our CBD.)

soulardx wrote:

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:02 PM - 2 days ago

I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

In a related point, if we all just see downtown Clayton as the regions central business district as opposed to DT STL , we're doing fine with relocations to the CBD. 

• Emerson: Ferguson → Emerson Tower, 8027 Forsyth (moved in Feb 2025, ~400 employees)
• FleishmanHillard: Downtown (200 N. Broadway) → Clayton (announced Oct 2024, ~40,000 sq ft)
• Energizer: Town and Country → Forsyth Centre, 8235 Forsyth (Nov 2024)
• Advantage Solutions: Irvine, CA → Commerce Bank Tower, 8001 Forsyth (2024)

• Polsinelli: 100 S. Fourth St. → Centene Centre, 7676 Forsyth (2024)
• Armstrong Teasdale: Metropolitan Square → Centene Plaza, 7700 Forsyth (2010)
• Husch Blackwell: Laclede Gas Building → Clayton (2009); now in Commerce Bank Tower
• Stinson: Downtown → Centene Plaza (around 2010)
• Lathrop & Gage (now Lathrop GPM): Downtown → Clayton (2011)
• Kohn, Shands: U.S. Bank Plaza → Shaw Park Plaza (2010)

 
We urbanists -- and I'm looking right in the mirror -- really need to start considering downtown Clayton as a *strong* regional asset. The region is better for having DT Clayton as it minimizes sprawl and keeps our regional biz assets more concentrated.

If you want another 100 years of depression then sure.

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soulardx wrote: ↑

2:36 PM - 1 day ago

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:02 PM - 2 days ago

I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

In a related point, if we all just see downtown Clayton as the regions central business district as opposed to DT STL , we're doing fine with relocations to the CBD. 

• Emerson: Ferguson → Emerson Tower, 8027 Forsyth (moved in Feb 2025, ~400 employees)
• FleishmanHillard: Downtown (200 N. Broadway) → Clayton (announced Oct 2024, ~40,000 sq ft)
• Energizer: Town and Country → Forsyth Centre, 8235 Forsyth (Nov 2024)
• Advantage Solutions: Irvine, CA → Commerce Bank Tower, 8001 Forsyth (2024)

• Polsinelli: 100 S. Fourth St. → Centene Centre, 7676 Forsyth (2024)
• Armstrong Teasdale: Metropolitan Square → Centene Plaza, 7700 Forsyth (2010)
• Husch Blackwell: Laclede Gas Building → Clayton (2009); now in Commerce Bank Tower
• Stinson: Downtown → Centene Plaza (around 2010)
• Lathrop & Gage (now Lathrop GPM): Downtown → Clayton (2011)
• Kohn, Shands: U.S. Bank Plaza → Shaw Park Plaza (2010)

 
We urbanists -- and I'm looking right in the mirror -- really need to start considering downtown Clayton as a *strong* regional asset.  The region is better for having DT Clayton as it minimizes sprawl and keeps our regional biz assets more concentrated.

(now, I will say that if I had a magic wand and could make STL part of STL County and have DT Clayton disappear, I'd 100% do it. of course!!  DT STL and the region as a whole would be so much stronger.  DT STL so much closer to DT Cinci, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, etc. but, just trying to deal with reality and facts of our region in 2026.  DT Clayton is only getting stronger as our CBD.)

With even a nominal-only merger of St. Louis City and County like a Miami-Dade situation, Clayton could be rebranded as Uptown St. Louis and be seen as just another business district within the city itself. 

Granted there would still need to be a concerted effort to ensure Downtown's stability and success, but yes, Clayton's growth is, at this point in our history, vastly preferable to westward growth (Chesterfield, Maryland Heights, St. Charles). Clayton is about as urban as a "suburb" in the Midwest gets. It even has its own true neighborhoods (The Moorlands, DeMun, Claverach Park, etc.). Do I celebrate downtown wins more heartily than Clayton wins? Of course. But that need not mean we view Clayton as the enemy or a regional detractor at this point (and I admit I used to think this way, big time).

stldotage wrote: ↑

3:12 PM - 1 day ago

soulardx wrote: ↑

2:36 PM - 1 day ago

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:02 PM - 2 days ago

I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

In a related point, if we all just see downtown Clayton as the regions central business district as opposed to DT STL , we're doing fine with relocations to the CBD. 

• Emerson: Ferguson → Emerson Tower, 8027 Forsyth (moved in Feb 2025, ~400 employees)
• FleishmanHillard: Downtown (200 N. Broadway) → Clayton (announced Oct 2024, ~40,000 sq ft)
• Energizer: Town and Country → Forsyth Centre, 8235 Forsyth (Nov 2024)
• Advantage Solutions: Irvine, CA → Commerce Bank Tower, 8001 Forsyth (2024)

• Polsinelli: 100 S. Fourth St. → Centene Centre, 7676 Forsyth (2024)
• Armstrong Teasdale: Metropolitan Square → Centene Plaza, 7700 Forsyth (2010)
• Husch Blackwell: Laclede Gas Building → Clayton (2009); now in Commerce Bank Tower
• Stinson: Downtown → Centene Plaza (around 2010)
• Lathrop & Gage (now Lathrop GPM): Downtown → Clayton (2011)
• Kohn, Shands: U.S. Bank Plaza → Shaw Park Plaza (2010)

 
We urbanists -- and I'm looking right in the mirror -- really need to start considering downtown Clayton as a *strong* regional asset.  The region is better for having DT Clayton as it minimizes sprawl and keeps our regional biz assets more concentrated.

(now, I will say that if I had a magic wand and could make STL part of STL County and have DT Clayton disappear, I'd 100% do it. of course!!  DT STL and the region as a whole would be so much stronger.  DT STL so much closer to DT Cinci, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, etc. but, just trying to deal with reality and facts of our region in 2026.  DT Clayton is only getting stronger as our CBD.)

With even a nominal-only merger of St. Louis City and County like a Miami-Dade situation, Clayton could be rebranded as Uptown St. Louis and be seen as just another business district within the city itself. 

Granted there would still need to be a concerted effort to ensure Downtown's stability and success, but yes, Clayton's growth is, at this point in our history, vastly preferable to westward growth (Chesterfield, Maryland Heights, St. Charles). Clayton is about as urban as a "suburb" in the Midwest gets. It even has its own true neighborhoods (The Moorlands, DeMun, Claverach Park, etc.). Do I celebrate downtown wins more heartily than Clayton wins? Of course. But that need not mean we view Clayton as the enemy or a regional detractor at this point (and I admit I used to think this way, big time).

@STLDotage, thank you for respectfully engaging and thoughtfully dialoguing.   Agree with what you wrote fully and completely.  (I too used to view Clayton as an enemy big time.)

 "uptown STL"  is spot on.

stldotage wrote: ↑

3:12 PM - 1 day ago

soulardx wrote: ↑

2:36 PM - 1 day ago

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:02 PM - 2 days ago

I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

In a related point, if we all just see downtown Clayton as the regions central business district as opposed to DT STL , we're doing fine with relocations to the CBD. 

• Emerson: Ferguson → Emerson Tower, 8027 Forsyth (moved in Feb 2025, ~400 employees)
• FleishmanHillard: Downtown (200 N. Broadway) → Clayton (announced Oct 2024, ~40,000 sq ft)
• Energizer: Town and Country → Forsyth Centre, 8235 Forsyth (Nov 2024)
• Advantage Solutions: Irvine, CA → Commerce Bank Tower, 8001 Forsyth (2024)

• Polsinelli: 100 S. Fourth St. → Centene Centre, 7676 Forsyth (2024)
• Armstrong Teasdale: Metropolitan Square → Centene Plaza, 7700 Forsyth (2010)
• Husch Blackwell: Laclede Gas Building → Clayton (2009); now in Commerce Bank Tower
• Stinson: Downtown → Centene Plaza (around 2010)
• Lathrop & Gage (now Lathrop GPM): Downtown → Clayton (2011)
• Kohn, Shands: U.S. Bank Plaza → Shaw Park Plaza (2010)

 
We urbanists -- and I'm looking right in the mirror -- really need to start considering downtown Clayton as a *strong* regional asset.  The region is better for having DT Clayton as it minimizes sprawl and keeps our regional biz assets more concentrated.

(now, I will say that if I had a magic wand and could make STL part of STL County and have DT Clayton disappear, I'd 100% do it. of course!!  DT STL and the region as a whole would be so much stronger.  DT STL so much closer to DT Cinci, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, etc. but, just trying to deal with reality and facts of our region in 2026.  DT Clayton is only getting stronger as our CBD.)

With even a nominal-only merger of St. Louis City and County like a Miami-Dade situation, Clayton could be rebranded as Uptown St. Louis and be seen as just another business district within the city itself. 

Granted there would still need to be a concerted effort to ensure Downtown's stability and success, but yes, Clayton's growth is, at this point in our history, vastly preferable to westward growth (Chesterfield, Maryland Heights, St. Charles). Clayton is about as urban as a "suburb" in the Midwest gets. It even has its own true neighborhoods (The Moorlands, DeMun, Claverach Park, etc.). Do I celebrate downtown wins more heartily than Clayton wins? Of course. But that need not mean we view Clayton as the enemy or a regional detractor at this point (and I admit I used to think this way, big time).

Yep, completely that... we as a region have more in common with say... Atlanta, than we think. Clayton is essentially St Louis's "Buckhead".

SRQ2STL wrote:

stldotage wrote: ↑

3:12 PM - 1 day ago

soulardx wrote: ↑

2:36 PM - 1 day ago

In a related point, if we all just see downtown Clayton as the regions central business district as opposed to DT STL , we're doing fine with relocations to the CBD. 

• Emerson: Ferguson → Emerson Tower, 8027 Forsyth (moved in Feb 2025, ~400 employees)
• FleishmanHillard: Downtown (200 N. Broadway) → Clayton (announced Oct 2024, ~40,000 sq ft)
• Energizer: Town and Country → Forsyth Centre, 8235 Forsyth (Nov 2024)
• Advantage Solutions: Irvine, CA → Commerce Bank Tower, 8001 Forsyth (2024)

• Polsinelli: 100 S. Fourth St. → Centene Centre, 7676 Forsyth (2024)
• Armstrong Teasdale: Metropolitan Square → Centene Plaza, 7700 Forsyth (2010)
• Husch Blackwell: Laclede Gas Building → Clayton (2009); now in Commerce Bank Tower
• Stinson: Downtown → Centene Plaza (around 2010)
• Lathrop & Gage (now Lathrop GPM): Downtown → Clayton (2011)
• Kohn, Shands: U.S. Bank Plaza → Shaw Park Plaza (2010)

 
We urbanists -- and I'm looking right in the mirror -- really need to start considering downtown Clayton as a *strong* regional asset.  The region is better for having DT Clayton as it minimizes sprawl and keeps our regional biz assets more concentrated.

(now, I will say that if I had a magic wand and could make STL part of STL County and have DT Clayton disappear, I'd 100% do it. of course!!  DT STL and the region as a whole would be so much stronger.  DT STL so much closer to DT Cinci, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, etc. but, just trying to deal with reality and facts of our region in 2026.  DT Clayton is only getting stronger as our CBD.)

With even a nominal-only merger of St. Louis City and County like a Miami-Dade situation, Clayton could be rebranded as Uptown St. Louis and be seen as just another business district within the city itself. 

Granted there would still need to be a concerted effort to ensure Downtown's stability and success, but yes, Clayton's growth is, at this point in our history, vastly preferable to westward growth (Chesterfield, Maryland Heights, St. Charles). Clayton is about as urban as a "suburb" in the Midwest gets. It even has its own true neighborhoods (The Moorlands, DeMun, Claverach Park, etc.). Do I celebrate downtown wins more heartily than Clayton wins? Of course. But that need not mean we view Clayton as the enemy or a regional detractor at this point (and I admit I used to think this way, big time).

Yep, completely that... we as a region have more in common with say... Atlanta, than we think. Clayton is essentially St Louis's "Buckhead".

Metro Atlanta is 2.3x the size of STL and growing at a rapid rate (6.4% since 2020). Their GDP is 2.7x that of STL. Clayton is also not part of the city and I think we all know it never will be.

Maybe STL would have more in common with Atlanta if it didn't have a leech destroying it. It's no coincidence that STL's decline is mirrored with the growth and success of the leech.

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We've all discussed the relationship between Clayton/Downtown as being similar to numerous other major cities - Seattle/Belleview, Dallas/Fort Worth, Atlanta/Buckhead, etc. Clayton and Downtown frankly have no choice but to co-exist for the health of the region. Geographically, they bookend the most critical part of the entire metro area in the central corridor. I know some people on this board would prefer that the city and county residents give serious consideration to a civil war but most rational people (everyone knows that certain posters do not fall into that category) understand that there has to be some cooperation for the metro to survive. 

Atlanta and Seattle were much closer in population to St. Louis in the 1980s and early 1990s than they are today. Since then, they have experienced decades of growth while St. Louis has largely stagnated. That is the difference, not the existence of Clayton.

Clayton developed as a major business district with the expectation that the St. Louis region would continue growing. It provides jobs, investment, tax revenue, and an additional center of economic activity. Downtown and Clayton should be complementary assets, not competitors. But ultimately, that won’t happen until the city and county re-unite.

Clayton isn’t going anywhere, and the region would be better served by finding ways to strengthen both districts and improve the connections between them.

St. Louis should be a New York City
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DehV7izxNqQ/?mdxt=MWRhb2NtZmt3ajJ6ZQ%3D%3D

Even if you do consider Clayton a regional detractor or a "leech", it's not going anywhere, ever. I'd rather have the center of regional gravity at the edge of Forest Park than at the edge of the Missouri River.

Also, Downtown has some other intra-City "leeches" latched to its potential vibrancy -- Midtown/Grand Center (theaters and arts + SLU), Central West End/Cortex (medical district, one of the largest employment centers in the region), and Forest Park (museums/zoo).

Yet we don't view the growth/investment in these areas as taking away from Downtown (and we obviously shouldn't). An invested, walkable, densely-populated-with-residents-and-jobs, urban, seamlessly-connected Central Corridor is without a doubt is a huge plus for the region. We're not an "eggs-in-one-basket" region like Indianapolis and we never will be.

stldotage wrote:Even if you do consider Clayton a regional detractor or a "leech", it's not going anywhere, ever. I'd rather have the center of regional gravity at the edge of Forest Park than at the edge of the Missouri River.

Also, Downtown has some other intra-City "leeches" latched to its potential vibrancy -- Midtown/Grand Center (theaters and arts + SLU), Central West End/Cortex (medical district, one of the largest employment centers in the region), and Forest Park (museums/zoo).

Yet we don't view the growth/investment in these areas as taking away from Downtown (and we obviously shouldn't). An invested, walkable, densely-populated-with-residents-and-jobs, urban, seamlessly-connected Central Corridor is without a doubt is a huge plus for the region. We're not an "eggs-in-one-basket" region like Indianapolis and we never will be.

Because Midtown and CWE actually grew on their own and didn't leech from downtown?When did Barnes or WashU move from downtown to CWE? When did the Fox or the Zoo move from downtown to Midtown and Forest Park? Actually, downtown has "leeched" more companies from the CWE than the other way around.

Theyre also all part of the city and all are eggs in one basket all contributing to the betterment of the city. There would be a fundamental difference if Clayton was part of the city, but the reason it exists ofc is because it's not.

It's not about job centers either. It's about the fact that Clayton's "jobs" should mostly be downtown, like in every other city. Beyond just the companies that it leeched, every bank based in Clayton is downtown in nearly every other city. Pretending Clayton was just inevitable and St. Louis is just a unicorn when no other city has anything remotely similar to our situation is just a coping mechanism. The point is that in an alternate universe, St. Louis' best and most succesful form is a St. Louis where Clayton is on the same level as Webster Groves.

Reality is that we will never have a "downtown revival" or "renaissance" without actual buy-in and investment from the business sector, the same business sector that has been essentially all-in on Clayton's success for the last 50 years, to the detriment of St. Louis, as seen in the last 50 years of stagnation. And pretending this is not the case is just accepting a permanency of St. Louis' status as a true 3rd tier city that will be passed by KC, Indy, Columbus, in the not so distant future. Already passed by Nashville, Charlotte, and Austin. So, my bad for not accepting that, and I'm certainly not celebrating moves from downtown to Clayton as "companies relocating to the CBD".

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We may be longing for the days when Clayton leeched DT STL once "Downtown Chesterfield" takes off. 

DogtownBnR wrote:We may be longing for the days when Clayton leeched DT STL once "Downtown Chesterfield" takes off. 

Well in 50 years people will talk about how it's a regional asset that should be considered the CBD.

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matguy70 wrote:

StlAlex wrote: ↑

6:57 PM - 1 day ago

stldotage wrote:Even if you do consider Clayton a regional detractor or a "leech", it's not going anywhere, ever. I'd rather have the center of regional gravity at the edge of Forest Park than at the edge of the Missouri River.

Also, Downtown has some other intra-City "leeches" latched to its potential vibrancy -- Midtown/Grand Center (theaters and arts + SLU), Central West End/Cortex (medical district, one of the largest employment centers in the region), and Forest Park (museums/zoo).

Yet we don't view the growth/investment in these areas as taking away from Downtown (and we obviously shouldn't). An invested, walkable, densely-populated-with-residents-and-jobs, urban, seamlessly-connected Central Corridor is without a doubt is a huge plus for the region. We're not an "eggs-in-one-basket" region like Indianapolis and we never will be.

Because Midtown and CWE actually grew on their own and didn't leech from downtown?When did Barnes or WashU move from downtown to CWE? When did the Fox or the Zoo move from downtown to Midtown and Forest Park? Actually, downtown has "leeched" more companies from the CWE than the other way around.

Theyre also all part of the city and all are eggs in one basket all contributing to the betterment of the city. There would be a fundamental difference if Clayton was part of the city, but the reason it exists ofc is because it's not.

It's not about job centers either. It's about the fact that Clayton's "jobs" should mostly be downtown, like in every other city. Beyond just the companies that it leeched, every bank based in Clayton is downtown in nearly every other city. Pretending Clayton was just inevitable and St. Louis is just a unicorn when no other city has anything remotely similar to our situation is just a coping mechanism. The point is that in an alternate universe, St. Louis' best and most succesful form is a St. Louis where Clayton is on the same level as Webster Groves.

Reality is that we will never have a "downtown revival" or "renaissance" without actual buy-in and investment from the business sector, the same business sector that has been essentially all-in on Clayton's success for the last 50 years, to the detriment of St. Louis, as seen in the last 50 years of stagnation. And pretending this is not the case is just accepting a permanency of St. Louis' status as a true 3rd tier city that will be passed by KC, Indy, Columbus, in the not so distant future. Already passed by Nashville, Charlotte, and Austin. So, my bad for not accepting that, and I'm certainly not celebrating moves from downtown to Clayton as "companies relocating to the CBD".

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Seriously, your posts are so dramatic and so negative about anything STL.  It gets nauseating reading posts.

You realize the original post I am responding to is suggesting we start considering relocations to Clayton as relocations to the CBD? You pretty much can't get more anti-STL than that lol. It's also not my fault your generation ran this city into the ground.

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Clayton's physical footprint is too small to serve as the singular CBD for a metropolitan area of 2.8 million people. And any regional thinking that Clayton should be our center of gravity risks shaping our resource limiting perspective.

The entire City of Clayton covers 2.5 square miles: that’s the downtown Clayton district and all surrounding neighborhoods. And because Clayton’s CBD is so small (about 15 square blocks), a single project like the Centene campus expansion disproportionately dominates the skyline and creates an outsized perception of regional dominance.

Comparatively, Downtown St. Louis (including Downtown West) is about 3 square miles or 500-600 square blocks.

Clayton is not going anywhere and we should accept it as a successful dense secondary node (like Bethesda, MD or Buckhead, GA) but setting it as the future central core of our region is problematic to me. Only the physical scale of the City of St. Louis can and should accommodate the diverse, competing economic engines required for a primary regional CBD of a MSA our size. We should treat it that way.


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There are other cities that only recently passed us in size that also are multinodal. Tampa and St. Petersburg are set up like this. Minneapolis and St. Paul also has this dynamic. Baltimore and Townson is very similar to St. Louis and Clayton. The idea that St. Louis with nearly 3 million in our region wouldn't have secondary urban nodes is inaccurate. Like others were saying, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Seattle, Miami, etc. are all multinodal cities. Many of them with more than 2 nodes. The problem is the lack of growth not the multinodal nature of the region. Very few cities operate like Chicago where literally everything is centered around the Loop. If St. Louis had that set up, we'd probably have a top 10 skyline. 

To reiterate my fundamental point that got this latest cat right rolling, I think many of the hardcore city folks need to evolve their thinking for the betterment of the region.

I was a hardcore city guy from a for a long time. (I've been posting on this forum so long, I'm sure you can find posts in which I bemoan Clayton for poaching....) I still live in the city, still own property in the city, run my business from the city, spend nearly all my $ in the city. I'm city through and through,

But, STL as a place will live and die with *regional* success not *just* DT STL success. 

In 2026 America, urbanists are distinct minority.  The vast majority of Americans want big yards and big houses and a SUV. The vast majority of Americans do not want to live in Manhattan. They want a place like suburban/exurban Dallas or Houston or Tampa. Population growth numbers prove it.

As such, if we are true urbanists and not just STL CITY ONLY urbanists, DT Clayton (a place legitimately in our urban core; not in Wentzville) needs to be seen a regional asset. Something that makes STL - as a region - more attractive to businesses who want to stay/move to the region. 

  

The thing is... Clayton exists. There is no putting that genie back in the bottle. Our regional priority still needs to be locating businesses downtown or at least in the city, but Clayton is still the next best thing.

Our urban core is directly competing with the outer suburbs. Every job off the highway in Chesterfield or St. Charles County is a job that is extremely inconvenient to commute to from the city. Those workers are thus not as likely to live in the city or it's close in subrubs.

Clayton is still in the core (albiet the western edge) and is connected to the city via Metrolink. It still contributes to the vitality of the core and should be treated as a core asset.

There is still more work to be done though as Clayton is still an island in the transitional area between our urbanized area and car dependent suburbs. Metrolink stations are poorly connected to their surrounding neighborhoods and still missing proper TOD. The Richmond Heights station and its surrounding really need to be densely developed. 

 IMO the Brickline should eventually be expanded through Forest Park and into Clayton with a good connection to the N/S Centennial Greenway at WashU. Forest Park is such a fantastic asset and connecting better connecting Clayton with it is the best way to connect Clayton with the City.

"(Washington University) held its first classes in 1854 in downtown St. Louis. In 1905, Washington University relocated to a new campus northwest of Forest Park, which allowed for expansion and new facilities to support its growing academic programs and student body."

SLU also started in downtown St. Louis technically. Pretty much everything of note in the city was east of Grand in its early history since city limits were set at Grand in 1855 and stayed that way until the 1876 divorce. 

Bottom line though: whether Clayton is a net positive or a net negative, Downtown needs to improve alongside it or despite it, respectively. The urbanist argument over Clayton's role in the city's decline is mostly irrelevant to that point.

goat314 wrote:There are other cities that only recently passed us in size that also are multinodal. Tampa and St. Petersburg are set up like this. Minneapolis and St. Paul also has this dynamic. Baltimore and Townson is very similar to St. Louis and Clayton. The idea that St. Louis with nearly 3 million in our region wouldn't have secondary urban nodes is inaccurate. Like others were saying, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Seattle, Miami, etc. are all multinodal cities. Many of them with more than 2 nodes. The problem is the lack of growth not the multinodal nature of the region. Very few cities operate like Chicago where literally everything is centered around the Loop. If St. Louis had that set up, we'd probably have a top 10 skyline. 

The point is that St. Louis is not large enough nor growing enough to support two downtowns. It's not about there being multiple nodes- Lambert, Westport, West County would be "nodes". Clayton is much more than a "node".

Tampa and St. Petersburg simply do not have the dynamic STL and Clayton have. Tampa CBD has in the range of 3.5x as much office space as STP's CBD.

Towson and Baltimore are a lot more similar to us, you are correct, but I'd also point out Baltimore has the same independence city dynamic as us, suffers many of the same consequences, and is wildly regarded as one of the worst cities in America.


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