urbanSTL

https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/j377mDeux8

Reddit says the former Tony's space at 10 S Broadway is being renovated into a new restaurant. @dbInSouthCity have any information?

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is this it? https://www.ksdk.com/article/life/food/citadel-prime-contemporary-steakhouse-by-delmonicos-hospitality-group-coming-to-clayton/63-a582763c-906a-41e0-ab0a-579f6624d2ba

BarryGlick wrote: ↑

8:44 PM - Oct 01

is this it? https://www.ksdk.com/article/life/food/citadel-prime-contemporary-steakhouse-by-delmonicos-hospitality-group-coming-to-clayton/63-a582763c-906a-41e0-ab0a-579f6624d2ba

That's Clayton. STLAlex is talking downtown.

I don't see any building permits so it may just be fake news. That's why I want an expert's knowledge.

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End of Q3

I hope this trend continues

Thank you for the info chart.

It'd be interesting to see the numbers for the city place apartments in DT west. Mansion house complex will be fun to track once that wraps up.

Gentry Landing is 97% occupied. 

The 6 DTW city view buildings are all pretty full.  It’s a mix of rent and owner occupied.   700+ units. 

dylank wrote: ↑

1:28 PM - 11 days ago

Thank you for the info chart.

It'd be interesting to see the numbers for the city place apartments in DT west. Mansion house complex will be fun to track once that wraps up.

We just got an appraisal done in the area recently.  Downtown apartment vacancy is approximately 20%.  

Only way you get to 20% is by including mansion house and Jeff arms, which Cushman did for a while before removing it and their Q2 data shows it at 13.3

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

1:31 AM - 10 days ago

Only way you get to 20% is by including mansion house and Jeff arms, which Cushman did for a while before removing it and their Q2 data shows it at 13.3

How many total apartment units are in "downtown" ?  

2020 census had 4,188 in downtown west and 4017 in downtown. That includes both renter and owner units.  

That does include butler brothers/victor, most likely not One Cardinal Way, 154 units on the landing, 11th and Spruce, ballpark heights, and a few smaller ones in downtown west but you can subtract 400 mansion house today,  so probably another 1000-1,100 on top of  8205

I agree generally. Cincy has an advantage in that I'd imagine a non-insignificant number of downtown workers might live in Covington/on the KY side directly across the river. If we had Covington on the east side, I think downtown's fortunes would look a lot different. 

That festival does look really cool.

I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

goat314 wrote:I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

It's one of the things that ensures St. Louis will remain held back. This city has so much potential, but just gets in its own way. Maybe Zimmerman will work with Spencer on a unified effort to enter the city back into the county as a municipality and the county can stop their stupid HQ search and put it downtown, where it's supposed to be.

Spencer can be defined by something like that if she puts in the effort and she could be forgiven for much of the other bs. Zimmerman would flat out be the best county executive ever.

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goat314 wrote: ↑

3:02 PM - 2 days ago

I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

A whole lot of “what ifs“, but I don’t think they’re grounded entirely in reality. The county is in far much worse shape than the city these days financially, so it’s actually kind of rich if the county thinks the city is broke. The county needs the city as a bailout, and the way I see it, let’s flip it back on them like they flipped it on the city for years and years. Why should the city serve as a bailout for the county? Let them figure it out. I also don’t think if the city remained part of the county for the past 150 years that the outcome would’ve been much different. You still would’ve had white flight from the city, the hollowing out of the urban core, and businesses moving out of downtown to a new downtown. The only thing that would’ve been different is the city would’ve chased the suburbs like Kansas City, but then you end up in another dicey situation like Kansas City is in.

People can continue making the argument for a city reentry into the county, but it won’t change anything in my view. What incentive would there be for county council members to vote to approve of anything good that occurs within the city limits? What if the entire governments were dissolved and merged into a unified government like Better Together wanted? Suburban city council members wouldn’t vote for anything to occur in the core of the city. County council members would never approve of the city annexing unincorporated areas of St Louis County to expand its borders. So you’re stuck with the city being on its own even as a county municipality. 

The entry solves nothing in my view. Let the city continue being unique being an independent city. Prove to everybody that it can be made better and is currently being made better, just slowly.

Chris Stritzel wrote:

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:02 PM - 2 days ago

I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

A whole lot of “what ifs“, but I don’t think they’re grounded entirely in reality. The county is in far much worse shape than the city these days financially, so it’s actually kind of rich if the county thinks the city is broke. The county needs the city as a bailout, and the way I see it, let’s flip it back on them like they flipped it on the city for years and years. Why should the city serve as a bailout for the county? Let them figure it out. I also don’t think if the city remained part of the county for the past 150 years that the outcome would’ve been much different. You still would’ve had white flight from the city, the hollowing out of the urban core, and businesses moving out of downtown to a new downtown. The only thing that would’ve been different is the city would’ve chased the suburbs like Kansas City, but then you end up in another dicey situation like Kansas City is in.

People can continue making the argument for a city reentry into the county, but it won’t change anything in my view. What incentive would there be for county council members to vote to approve of anything good that occurs within the city limits? What if the entire governments were dissolved and merged into a unified government like Better Together wanted? Suburban city council members wouldn’t vote for anything to occur in the core of the city. County council members would never approve of the city annexing unincorporated areas of St Louis County to expand its borders. So you’re stuck with the city being on its own even as a county municipality. 

The entry solves nothing in my view. Let the city continue being unique being an independent city. Prove to everybody that it can be made better and is currently being made better, just slowly.

This is too much to really respond to, but it is not in the city's interest at all to allow the county to continue to decline. The city can't succeed with a declining county just as much as the county can't succeed with a declining city.

And in normal cities, this all sounds stupid because the county's and city's interests are more or less aligned compared to here, where we hope for the other's demise.

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Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑

4:18 PM - 2 days ago

goat314 wrote: ↑

3:02 PM - 2 days ago

I think the city not being a municipality in the county hurts the city a lot from an economic development perspective.  The county doesnt view the city as an asset or opportunity. It looks at it as competition or even a burden. There is no way the city would have fallen as much as it has if it was another municipality in the county. I'd imagine the basic infrastructure would be better, the downtown would be healthier, Metrolink would probably be double the size by now. Overall a much more centered region. 

A whole lot of “what ifs“, but I don’t think they’re grounded entirely in reality. The county is in far much worse shape than the city these days financially, so it’s actually kind of rich if the county thinks the city is broke. The county needs the city as a bailout, and the way I see it, let’s flip it back on them like they flipped it on the city for years and years. Why should the city serve as a bailout for the county? Let them figure it out. I also don’t think if the city remained part of the county for the past 150 years that the outcome would’ve been much different. You still would’ve had white flight from the city, the hollowing out of the urban core, and businesses moving out of downtown to a new downtown. The only thing that would’ve been different is the city would’ve chased the suburbs like Kansas City, but then you end up in another dicey situation like Kansas City is in.

People can continue making the argument for a city reentry into the county, but it won’t change anything in my view. What incentive would there be for county council members to vote to approve of anything good that occurs within the city limits? What if the entire governments were dissolved and merged into a unified government like Better Together wanted? Suburban city council members wouldn’t vote for anything to occur in the core of the city. County council members would never approve of the city annexing unincorporated areas of St Louis County to expand its borders. So you’re stuck with the city being on its own even as a county municipality. 

The entry solves nothing in my view. Let the city continue being unique being an independent city. Prove to everybody that it can be made better and is currently being made better, just slowly.

Just because the county screwed up it doesn’t mean the city needs to be petty and spite the county now that roles are reversed. Things need incorporated together. It doesn’t matter who has the stronger hand at the time. 

If the City entered the County, I wouldn’t be opposed to it like I once was, but I don’t think it would change anything in a meaningful way as the divisions and competition would continue, just within the County itself.

County home office moving downtown would be nice and make sense, but it seems like the hearts of some decision makers in the County is on moving the County HQ to Northwest Plaza. Even in a reentry scenario, that might still be what they want. 

I’ve varied on the topic over the years. Recently I’ve gotten it in my head that the City doesn’t really need the County. The City just needs to subscribe to radical urbanism and stick to a mission of making the City the most productive and livable 63 square miles in the world. Doing that would be much harder with County folk involved.

Mass density, car-free corridors, aggressive approach to trees/shade, less infrastructure.

Yea I agree w/ stlalex.  Saying the city wouldn't benefit from the county is as silly as saying the county wouldn't benefit from the city.  That mindset is why we'll never advance.

Agee w stlalex comments as well.

I do think the city does need to work towards its strengths of providing a more multibodal/walkable/more selective dense urban neighborhoods.   City will still have a lot of single residential and will need to bring back more just on land mass vs current population/or even reasonable population growth.   That being said, it should go all in on dense central corridor, more brickline and more dedicated bikeways/bikelanes at expense of a autos, more trees, more multiunit & ADU.   City is literally the urban choice for the region and should double down on that.   Nor does preclude from being part of the county and consolidating some of the services.   

I feel if the city was in the county the white flight would of happen inside of all of 270 in the 70s in to the 90s. Vs today as mostly contained to north county. 

Basically what happened to Memphis