urbanSTL

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

12:46 PM - 2 days ago

There is really not good way to do downtown to downtown comps that make sense.  For example: here is downtown KC overlaid(orange) with downtown STL.  More people visit the downtown STL boundary then they visit the kc one despite it being 6sq miles vs 2 here

Through March, downtown neighborhood had less than 1 crime against a person per day (most between parties having a dispute) and 3 crimes per day against property; car, building, etc.  

Downtown west had 1 against a person almost every other day and 3 a day against property.  

So with that in mind, consider that daily there is 11,000 residents, 40-60,000 workers and on a week like this 20,000-25,000 visitors for robotics, conferences, tourists.     So average day this week had 75,000 people in downtown and downtown west and 1.5 crimes against a person (again between people that know each other) and 6 crimes against property.

And the people who say “I don’t feel safe” would say there is 4 murders, 18 shootings and 25 car jackings a day (btw, downtown has had 1 car jacking through March). There is nothing that can be done to fix that kind of stupid

two things here.

1) Would it be wise to sharply consolidate the parts of downtown that STL subsidizes/invests in?  I mean, the Arch is about equidistant to Soulard Market and Lafayette Square than it is to Enterprise Park.  Yet, the Arch and EP are in "downtown."  So, should we focus nearly ALL investment/subsidy from the river west to only 14th (not Jefferson), south to only 64 (not Chouteau), north to only Washington (not Delmar).  Cut "downtown" by like 2/3. I can't say I like this, as it will only weaken the link between downtown and surrounding neighborhoods, but limited investment/subsidy $$ demands we prioritize. 

2). I'm beating a dead horse here but "feeling safe" is not about reported violent crime. it's about overly aggressive street people, drug addicts, the apocalyptic vibe of vacant buildings like the Railway Exchange, and car cloutings. Excessive disorder. While I spent much of my life dismissing suburbanites who kept yammering about "not feeling safe" because the data showed otherwise, it's the disorder. it's always been the disorder. 

I would love for downtown to include the Soulard Farmer's Market, it's not even that far fetched. If we can find a way to properly develop the 4th/Broadway/7th street corridors going south it would become functionally connected. Similar to how KC's is connected to their downtown. 

soulardx wrote: ↑

2:21 PM - 2 days ago

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

12:46 PM - 2 days ago

There is really not good way to do downtown to downtown comps that make sense.  For example: here is downtown KC overlaid(orange) with downtown STL.  More people visit the downtown STL boundary then they visit the kc one despite it being 6sq miles vs 2 here

Through March, downtown neighborhood had less than 1 crime against a person per day (most between parties having a dispute) and 3 crimes per day against property; car, building, etc.  

Downtown west had 1 against a person almost every other day and 3 a day against property.  

So with that in mind, consider that daily there is 11,000 residents, 40-60,000 workers and on a week like this 20,000-25,000 visitors for robotics, conferences, tourists.     So average day this week had 75,000 people in downtown and downtown west and 1.5 crimes against a person (again between people that know each other) and 6 crimes against property.

And the people who say “I don’t feel safe” would say there is 4 murders, 18 shootings and 25 car jackings a day (btw, downtown has had 1 car jacking through March). There is nothing that can be done to fix that kind of stupid

two things here.

1) Would it be wise to sharply consolidate the parts of downtown that STL subsidizes/invests in?  I mean, the Arch is about equidistant to Soulard Market and Lafayette Square than it is to Enterprise Park.  Yet, the Arch and EP are in "downtown."  So, should we focus nearly ALL investment/subsidy from the river west to only 14th (not Jefferson), south to only 64 (not Chouteau), north to only Washington (not Delmar).  Cut "downtown" by like 2/3. I can't say I like this, as it will only weaken the link between downtown and surrounding neighborhoods, but limited investment/subsidy $$ demands we prioritize. 

2). I'm beating a dead horse here but "feeling safe" is not about reported violent crime. it's about overly aggressive street people, drug addicts, the apocalyptic vibe of vacant buildings like the Railway Exchange, and car cloutings. Excessive disorder. While I spent much of my life dismissing suburbanites who kept yammering about "not feeling safe" because the data showed otherwise, it's the disorder. it's always been the disorder. 

Downtown subsides the rest of the City, it produces $100,000,000 in revenue for City gov and gets back $28M

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

2:39 PM - 2 days ago

I would love for downtown to include the Soulard Farmer's Market, it's not even that far fetched. If we can find a way to properly develop the 4th/Broadway/7th street corridors going south it would become functionally connected. Similar to how KC's is connected to their downtown. 

And/or ... 

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

2:39 PM - 2 days ago

I would love for downtown to include the Soulard Farmer's Market, it's not even that far fetched. If we can find a way to properly develop the 4th/Broadway/7th street corridors going south it would become functionally connected. Similar to how KC's is connected to their downtown. 

ohhh, you to do the opposite? LOL. I get it, but my half-ass thought here is trying to focus downtown's efforts more. get more wins in a more compact area.  get the PR and vibe wins rolling there.

We should be doing both, downtown absolutely needs to be strengthened from within, but it is still largely an island that needs to be stitched back into our greater urban fabric. IMO the areas between and Chouteau and 64 + Lucas and Cole area nearly as important to downtown vibrancy as the downtown core itself.

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:We should be doing both, downtown absolutely needs to be strengthened from within, but it is still largely an island that needs to be stitched back into our greater urban fabric. IMO the areas between and Chouteau and 64 + Lucas and Cole area nearly as important to downtown vibrancy as the downtown core itself.

Redeveloping Columbus Square and Carr Square into true urban neighborhoods like Benton Park, Lafayette Square, etc is one of the most important things for the future health of Downtown and North City.

It’s mind boggling how bad the land use is in that area.

A few small inter dispersed mixed use buildings with neighborhood scale retail would do a world of good for the desirability of these neighborhoods. Getting a dense and mixed use corridor running along Tucker and 14th would be amazing as well

Rough outside of rams settlement plan

$100m north city
$62.5m downtown
Rest citywide infrastructure

I hope the private sector (GSTL) is ready to match both Downtown and North City. 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

2:54 PM - 2 days ago

Downtown subsides the rest of the City, it produces $100,000,000 in revenue for City gov and gets back $28M

It doesn't "produce" that in a vacuum and couldn't "produce" that if people weren't temporarily coming downtown every day from other communities that have their own services to provide for all those people. This is like the never-ending argument in the county about point-of-sale cities "getting to keep the money they generate" in sales tax when it's largely the people from pool cities that go there temporarily to "generate" it for them.

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... ategy.html

Some interesting parts:

“I still think it’s a great idea,” Clark said of the plan to bring businesses together downtown. “I would say we have been studying buildings and we’ve been spending time downtown, so I wouldn’t say it’s just a pipe dream.”

"This London trip included some amazing civic leadership and really, honestly included the kind of group that I've been talking about for years that needs to do the strategic plan for the region," Clark said.

He warned that scenes of public discord, including hostile meetings, are watched closely by corporate decision-makers. Clayco is a major developer of data centers, including a $6 billion project in Festus, where local voters recently ousted incumbent city council members who voted for the project. Clark has previously described the opposition to data centers — including one in Midtown St. Louis — as "shocking" and "confusing."

“When they see crazy people throwing things in meetings, that’s a scary proposition for business,” Clark said.

Still, Clark said progress depends on whether regional leaders are willing to move from conversation to execution.

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So more than a year after his "idea", all he has to say is that it's more than a pipe dream, he doesn't articulate what this idea would even
look like, doesn't name any companies, and reiterates that actually it's the city leaders that need to execute. Oh and it's a good idea.

Remember like less than 3 years ago when Clark kept Clayco out in the suburbs? He could have been hailed as a hero but alas, he's just a pathetic excuse of a man, like most billionaires. Clayco is a great example of how "business growth" out in the hellscape suburbs don't actually move the needle very much while growth downtown actually makes a difference. Build a Bear and Larson had a greater impact on the health of the region than Clayco, but Bob doesn't grasp that.

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Come on; calling Bob Clark "a pathetic excuse of a man" is really, really pushing it.

framer wrote:Come on; calling Bob Clark "a pathetic excuse of a man" is really, really pushing it.

No, it's actually not. I'm far more forgiving of billionaires than I should be. Especially vindictive ones like him.

I'd love for him to man up though, but we all know he won't, it's not in his character.

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Nah Bob Clark sucks big time. Just an unaccountable old rich guy who's perplexed when he doesn't get what he wants.

If he's "shocked" and "confused" by the opposition to data centers he's not paying attention. I think the concerns of the opposition have been pretty clear and pretty reasonable: noise pollution, heat pollution, high demand for utilities, and especially electricity and water, just to name a few. And that's not even counting the more nuanced stuff like lack of pedestrian activation and rather hostile architecture that are fairly frequent features. Has he expressed any support at all for a discussion of sensible regulations? Suggesting we need to move from "conversation to execution" pretty much sounds like the opposite.

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... ement.html

Bob Clark calls for "more civic engagement" from St. Louis business executives.

Clark was reminiscent of former health insurance executive Michael Neidorff, saying, "I sure miss Michael Neidorff to tell you the truth. And I I do find myself often asking, ‘What would Michael do?’”

He also pointed to high-profile corporate participation in recent international economic development trips, including the maiden British Airways flight from St. Louis to London last week, as another sign that business leaders are starting to engage more publicly.

“Seeing (Enterprise Mobility Chairman) Andy Taylor over in London at these events lifted my heart,” Clark said. “So I’m not by myself.”

---

I think Bob might be starting to lose it because this guy literally cannot be serious. This is the same guy who moved Clayco's HQ to Chicago in 2014, expanded suburban office space in 2024, exing any hope for a move downtown, and moved one of his subsidiaries out of the city just so he could create bad news for a politician he didn't like.

NOW he's reminiscing about a guy who's biggest contribution to the city was fare gates for Metro and making people fear crime even more? The same Michael Neidorff who embarrassed the city in by specifically NOT doing civic investment downtown?

And what on God's green earth is he talking about Andy Taylor for as if the Taylors have not done significant civic engagement? The Taylors have done far more for the city and especially downtown than his bum ass has. I couldn't even tell you if Clayco even has an advertisement at Enterprise or Busch, much less actual civic engagement in the downtown area. While Bobby was moving companies to the county as a middle finger, the Taylors were developing the soccer complex.

I also love how dismissive he is of all the other corporations that actually are invested in downtown. You know, the Stifel, Ameren, Purina, Spire, HoK....Build a Bear, Larson.....the Cardinals and Blues.....He acts like these businesses are not actively trying to do exactly what he's "calling" for while he blabs his mouth to whatever media will listen to him and does NOTHING. I mean hell ***** Cordish seems to have a higher opinion of St. Louis than this clown.

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While I'll stop short of calling him a pathetic man since I don't know him at all, Clark does seem to seek out microphones a lot and tends to say things that very strategically paint him like a potential savior without much to back it up. 

jbacott wrote: ↑

2:27 PM - Today

While I'll stop short of calling him a pathetic man since I don't know him at all, Clark does seem to seek out microphones a lot and tends to say things that very strategically paint him like a potential savior without much to back it up. 

dude is annoying AF.   Lot of yammering about how downtown and the city suck.  But, rather than actually leading by example and doing something about (you know, putting your company downtown or in the city)....