Love those. Olive west of Tucker needs that road diet so badly.
I think this is an interpretation problem. Reality is that the status quo is inhumane and results in the deaths of lots of people every year. Compelling people who cannot live on their own to, let's say, to live in government run mental hospitals until they are rehabilitated or permanently if they cannot be, is not a bad idea.SRQ2STL wrote:erm...What. You may want to re-read that statement. It comes across... authoritarian, classist, and exterminator-like in tone. These are human beings man. They need resources and casework. Not to "be removed" like they're cockroaches or rats. Ew...soulardx wrote: ↑1:59 PM - 15 days agoI agree with and endorse all of this.stldotage wrote: ↑1:47 PM - 15 days agoThe Central West End feels like an actual neighborhood whereas downtown feels like everything but a neighborhood (a business district, entertainment district, civic center, etc.). The residential portions of the CWE bleed mostly seamlessly into the commercial/mixed use portions. It has attractive lighting and well maintained sidewalks/roads. It has a pretty reliable tree canopy (tornadoes notwithstanding).
Downtown needs all of that so, so much.
Here's an example of an already fairly nice/attractive downtown block -- the 900 block of Olive:
Olive.jpg
Yet it is still lacking in a sense of investment/placemaking/design/basic infrastructure. Here's an AI stab at adding those (credit: Nano Banana 2/Google):
image_d6843086.pngSo much of it is about basic maintenance and infrastructure. And also adding human-scale architecture:
Here's an example of that (11th and Locust):
Locust.jpg
And with some nice row house infill and street trees and such:
image_11865d9d (1).pngIf I were a billionaire this streetscape would already exist right in that spot lol.
I do want to go back to disorder - mentally ill street people and drug addicts need to be removed. yes, there are some in the CWE but, in my experience, the number of folks downtown are even more pronounced. I don't have a funding mechanism or long-term solution (you know, the hardest parts!) but simply removing those people will go a long way toward improving everyone's downtown experience.
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thank you for interpreting my initial comment correctly, despite some clumsy language.StlAlex wrote: ↑4:04 PM - 15 days agoI think this is an interpretation problem. Reality is that the status quo is inhumane and results in the deaths of lots of people every year. Compelling people who cannot live on their own to, let's say, to live in government run mental hospitals until they are rehabilitated or permanently if they cannot be.SRQ2STL wrote:erm...What. You may want to re-read that statement. It comes across... authoritarian, classist, and exterminator-like in tone. These are human beings man. They need resources and casework. Not to "be removed" like they're cockroaches or rats. Ew...soulardx wrote: ↑1:59 PM - 15 days agoI agree with and endorse all of this.
I do want to go back to disorder - mentally ill street people and drug addicts need to be removed. yes, there are some in the CWE but, in my experience, the number of folks downtown are even more pronounced. I don't have a funding mechanism or long-term solution (you know, the hardest parts!) but simply removing those people will go a long way toward improving everyone's downtown experience.
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It seems that most other modern, western countries (Europe, East Asia, etc.) don't allow mentally ill/drug addicted homeless to simply live on the street, why do we in the US? I used to just chalk-up that kind of thing to the quirks of "city living" but after seeing first hand how those other countries deal with that problem, I think it's clear we're getting the worst of both worlds here. We get public transit/city centers with excessive disorder and our homeless never get better.
And to again connect it back to the challenges of DT STL, limit the disorder and DT STL improves drastically for the people who already live DT and provides an improved experience for DT's tourists (I'm using tourists here to mean anyone who comes downtown for an event but doesn't live there.)
Sorry to ignore the homeless conversation but I had one final rendering of my "redesign downtown with Google AI" fest.
Another downtown problem is that its edges/transitions to nearby neighborhoods are awful. Here is an area I asked AI to reimagine. It's just east of the Ameren campus and just south of I-64/40 and the railroad tracks. I asked it to create a district I call "Singleton Square" (there's a street back there named that and I liked the alliteration). I also liked the idea of St. Louis having a Savannah-esque series of public squares. Here is the before aerial:
And a bird's eye view of the after for a reimagined Singleton Square:
And since Clinton-Peabody across Chouteau is already rebuilding and has a central park within its redesign, that could be Peabody Square. See the site rendering from that redevelopment's website here.
Another downtown problem is that its edges/transitions to nearby neighborhoods are awful. Here is an area I asked AI to reimagine. It's just east of the Ameren campus and just south of I-64/40 and the railroad tracks. I asked it to create a district I call "Singleton Square" (there's a street back there named that and I liked the alliteration). I also liked the idea of St. Louis having a Savannah-esque series of public squares. Here is the before aerial:
And a bird's eye view of the after for a reimagined Singleton Square:
And since Clinton-Peabody across Chouteau is already rebuilding and has a central park within its redesign, that could be Peabody Square. See the site rendering from that redevelopment's website here.
There's also the fact this country has lots of policies that are designed to cultivate a permanent underclass or poor and disordered people while normal countries do not do it as deliberately as this country does.soulardx wrote:thank you for interpreting my initial comment correctly, despite some clumsy language.StlAlex wrote: ↑4:04 PM - 15 days agoI think this is an interpretation problem. Reality is that the status quo is inhumane and results in the deaths of lots of people every year. Compelling people who cannot live on their own to, let's say, to live in government run mental hospitals until they are rehabilitated or permanently if they cannot be.SRQ2STL wrote: erm...What. You may want to re-read that statement. It comes across... authoritarian, classist, and exterminator-like in tone. These are human beings man. They need resources and casework. Not to "be removed" like they're cockroaches or rats. Ew...
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It seems that most other modern, western countries (Europe, East Asia, etc.) don't allow mentally ill/drug addicted homeless to simply live on the street, why do we in the US? I used to just chalk-up that kind of thing to the quirks of "city living" but after seeing first hand how those other countries deal with that problem, I think it's clear we're getting the worst of both worlds here. We get public transit/city centers with excessive disorder and our homeless never get better.
And to again connect it back to the challenges of DT STL, limit the disorder and DT STL improves drastically for the people who already live DT and provides an improved experience for DT's tourists (I'm using tourists here to mean anyone who comes downtown for an event but doesn't live there.)
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why do we in the US?
We are a society based on individuality e.g. "pull yourself up by your boot straps"
Where as the cultures that you mention are more based on collective thinking/plan
We are a society based on individuality e.g. "pull yourself up by your boot straps"
Where as the cultures that you mention are more based on collective thinking/plan
While I agree, I suppose I'm saying that I'd love to see STL pioneer a different approach to the homeless/street people that improves DT STL and the lives of those very folks. And, as I've said the whole thread, barring a trillionaire benefactor, I don't have any idea what that approach should be.BarryGlick wrote: ↑5:21 PM - 15 days agowhy do we in the US?
We are a society based on individuality e.g. "pull yourself up by your boot straps"
Where as the cultures that you mention are more based on collective thinking/plan
Ooo.. very Boston. I dig!stldotage wrote: ↑4:37 PM - 15 days agoSorry to ignore the homeless conversation but I had one final rendering of my "redesign downtown with Google AI" fest.
Another downtown problem is that its edges/transitions to nearby neighborhoods are awful. Here is an area I asked AI to reimagine. It's just east of the Ameren campus and just south of I-64/40 and the railroad tracks. I asked it to create a district I call "Singleton Square" (there's a street back there named that and I liked the alliteration). I also liked the idea of St. Louis having a Savannah-esque series of public squares. Here is the before aerial:
Singleton.png
And a bird's eye view of the after for a reimagined Singleton Square:
Singleton Final.png
And since Clinton-Peabody across Chouteau is already rebuilding and has a central park within its redesign, that could be Peabody Square. See the site rendering from that redevelopment's website here.
Especially this part of Boston: Franklin Square and Blackstone Square.stldotage wrote: ↑4:37 PM - 15 days agoSorry to ignore the homeless conversation but I had one final rendering of my "redesign downtown with Google AI" fest.
Another downtown problem is that its edges/transitions to nearby neighborhoods are awful. Here is an area I asked AI to reimagine. It's just east of the Ameren campus and just south of I-64/40 and the railroad tracks. I asked it to create a district I call "Singleton Square" (there's a street back there named that and I liked the alliteration). I also liked the idea of St. Louis having a Savannah-esque series of public squares. Here is the before aerial:
Singleton.png
And a bird's eye view of the after for a reimagined Singleton Square:
Singleton Final.png
And since Clinton-Peabody across Chouteau is already rebuilding and has a central park within its redesign, that could be Peabody Square. See the site rendering from that redevelopment's website here.
Since were sharing... here was something I thought of for between the Kiener Plaza garages.
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That looks awesome ^^^ would be a nice gateway into downtown from Kiener Plaza and vice versa
The policy "solutions" to this problem are known. They involve a combination of law enforcement hated by the "left" and public services and investment hated by the "right." The problem is therefore political, and it will never be solved in St. Louis or Missouri, or America generally, because we are not a serious people and we live under a predatory ruling class that would prefer we remain politically divided and incapable of self-organizing outside the two-party play pen.soulardx wrote: ↑5:41 PM - 15 days agoWhile I agree, I suppose I'm saying that I'd love to see STL pioneer a different approach to the homeless/street people that improves DT STL and the lives of those very folks. And, as I've said the whole thread, barring a trillionaire benefactor, I don't have any idea what that approach should be.BarryGlick wrote: ↑5:21 PM - 15 days agowhy do we in the US?
We are a society based on individuality e.g. "pull yourself up by your boot straps"
Where as the cultures that you mention are more based on collective thinking/plan
Honestly... this. 100.SB in BH wrote: ↑4:53 PM - 14 days agoThe policy "solutions" to this problem are known. They involve a combination of law enforcement hated by the "left" and public services and investment hated by the "right." The problem is therefore political, and it will never be solved in St. Louis or Missouri, or America generally, because we are not a serious people and we live under a predatory ruling class that would prefer we remain politically divided and incapable of self-organizing outside the two-party play pen.soulardx wrote: ↑5:41 PM - 15 days agoWhile I agree, I suppose I'm saying that I'd love to see STL pioneer a different approach to the homeless/street people that improves DT STL and the lives of those very folks. And, as I've said the whole thread, barring a trillionaire benefactor, I don't have any idea what that approach should be.BarryGlick wrote: ↑5:21 PM - 15 days agowhy do we in the US?
We are a society based on individuality e.g. "pull yourself up by your boot straps"
Where as the cultures that you mention are more based on collective thinking/plan
For the last 80 years civic leaders have focused on making the City a great place for tourists (including county residents) to visit and/or for capitalists to invest. Our history and landscape is littered with silver-bullet programs and projects, many taxpayer-subsidized, we expected to magically solve our collective problems. These are a mixed bag in terms of public ROI and many of them have been argued extensively on this board.
Its time we refocused on making it a great place to live. That starts with providing order. Humanely relocating (and long-term reducing) the homeless population is step one and real policy solutions are available, as noted above.
Second, (and this policy is way overhyped but I'll use it as an example since everyone on this Board knows about it), Broken-windows public safety (which includes but is broader than policing). This doesn't have to mean rounding up all the undesirables and throwing them in jail for minor infractions (which is what conservatives mean when they invoke it), but it does mean cleaning up blighted areas and keeping them cleaned up, which requires more aggressive law enforcement, e.g., of littering ordnances via fines (for those who can pay them) or community service cleaning up blighted places (for those that cannot). I don't see much effort on this front from the Mayor or the BOA (excluding the Tucker revamp that's been discussed on this forum), but perhaps I'm just ignorant of recent developments.
Order also means well-maintained roads and well-timed intersections that prioritize pedestrian safety (even if that makes the City less-appealing to the aforementioned tourists/visitors) and reliable public transportation for those who need/want it. We're making progress on this front, a few recent missteps downtown and the Green Line notwithstanding.
Once order is restored in the eyes of the public, people will want to live downtown again. Layer public subsidies for private residential development on top and we could even see an honest revival. Bring back residential and the tourists and the capitalists will return.
Its time we refocused on making it a great place to live. That starts with providing order. Humanely relocating (and long-term reducing) the homeless population is step one and real policy solutions are available, as noted above.
Second, (and this policy is way overhyped but I'll use it as an example since everyone on this Board knows about it), Broken-windows public safety (which includes but is broader than policing). This doesn't have to mean rounding up all the undesirables and throwing them in jail for minor infractions (which is what conservatives mean when they invoke it), but it does mean cleaning up blighted areas and keeping them cleaned up, which requires more aggressive law enforcement, e.g., of littering ordnances via fines (for those who can pay them) or community service cleaning up blighted places (for those that cannot). I don't see much effort on this front from the Mayor or the BOA (excluding the Tucker revamp that's been discussed on this forum), but perhaps I'm just ignorant of recent developments.
Order also means well-maintained roads and well-timed intersections that prioritize pedestrian safety (even if that makes the City less-appealing to the aforementioned tourists/visitors) and reliable public transportation for those who need/want it. We're making progress on this front, a few recent missteps downtown and the Green Line notwithstanding.
Once order is restored in the eyes of the public, people will want to live downtown again. Layer public subsidies for private residential development on top and we could even see an honest revival. Bring back residential and the tourists and the capitalists will return.
All of these are lovely but our problem isn't a lack of potential urbanist projects, it's a lack of political and economic solutions to get us from here to there.stldotage wrote: ↑4:37 PM - 15 days agoSorry to ignore the homeless conversation but I had one final rendering of my "redesign downtown with Google AI" fest.
Another downtown problem is that its edges/transitions to nearby neighborhoods are awful. Here is an area I asked AI to reimagine. It's just east of the Ameren campus and just south of I-64/40 and the railroad tracks. I asked it to create a district I call "Singleton Square" (there's a street back there named that and I liked the alliteration). I also liked the idea of St. Louis having a Savannah-esque series of public squares. Here is the before aerial:
Singleton.png
And a bird's eye view of the after for a reimagined Singleton Square:
Singleton Final.png
And since Clinton-Peabody across Chouteau is already rebuilding and has a central park within its redesign, that could be Peabody Square. See the site rendering from that redevelopment's website here.
Who owns/operates whatever currently exists on those parcels? How do you get them to reinvest and/or sell to would-be investors in Singleton Square LLC? That's the problem to solve.
For the 8 millionth time I'll plug an aggressive Land Value Tax as one big spoon to stir the investment pot, but it would require buy-in from our current corporate overlords and their minions in Jeff City, the people most determined to keep their swanky spot on the titanic even as it sinks.
I think we need something akin to the Forest Park Forever model -- a non-profit/regional entity dedicated to downtown improvements and maintenance that also helps plan/envision/catalyze growth. I know it's thornier when you're asking for private funding to benefit private landowners (vs. Forest Park, a public park) but really downtown should be seen as a uniquely regional space with a need for regional/private philanthropy as much as any park (if not more).
Gateway Arch Park Foundation has kind of taken that mantle up for the Millennium site but obviously we need something more expansive and holistic.
Gateway Arch Park Foundation has kind of taken that mantle up for the Millennium site but obviously we need something more expansive and holistic.
As one who has lived in the city for more than 25, years this rings so so true. I've seen a monstro redo of the Arch grounds and 2 DT sports stadiums built in that time, and I'd say city services have only degraded. make it a better place for people to live and a lot of better sh*t will follow.SB in BH wrote: ↑5:14 PM - 14 days agoFor the last 80 years civic leaders have focused on making the City a great place for tourists (including county residents) to visit and/or for capitalists to invest.
I appreciate a lot of the other responses here - land value tax, enforcing laws, etc.
I'm getting warmer and warmer to the idea of the state forcing change on the region. Sure, bright-red MAGA Mo makes me cringe a lot, but if they can somehow force the city/county to combine (while somehow including St. Charles County), it may be the only way it'll happen in my lifetime and while the MSA is still top 25.
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It feels like we’re getting closer and closer to that happening. As much as I don’t agree with a lot that goes on in Jeff City, we might not be capable of getting out of this ourselves. While KC is experiencing solid growth, and Southwest Missouri and Mid-Missouri are booming, the state’s largest region, St. Louis, struggling for so long is what is holding Missouri back when it comes to population growth, crime stats, etc.soulardx wrote:As one who has lived in the city for more than 25, years this rings so so true. I've seen a monstro redo of the Arch grounds and 2 DT sports stadiums built in that time, and I'd say city services have only degraded. make it a better place for people to live and a lot of better sh*t will follow.SB in BH wrote: ↑5:14 PM - 14 days agoFor the last 80 years civic leaders have focused on making the City a great place for tourists (including county residents) to visit and/or for capitalists to invest.
I appreciate a lot of the other responses here - land value tax, enforcing laws, etc.
I'm getting warmer and warmer to the idea of the state forcing change on the region. Sure, bright-red MAGA Mo makes me cringe a lot, but if they can somehow force the city/county to combine (while somehow including St. Charles County), it may be the only way it'll happen in my lifetime and while the MSA is still top 25.
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Yeah, we’re going to be saved by degenerates whose only play is to cut taxes, lie about how much less revenue it’s been generating, and then cut state services. Why do you think there’s so much student loan debt? Thirty-five years ago, the state covered 80% of tuition at Mizzou. Today, it’s 20%. And that happened by cutting taxes. The additional growth, the revenue magic pixie dust, never came, and then they cut the state’s support for it. But yes, they will save us.
Yea i think you're not in real life if you think the single largest thorn in the side of St. Louis is magically gonna come save us
There was already GOP opposition to Page's pitch to merge the city and county.
The state is holding STL back, not the other way around.
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There was already GOP opposition to Page's pitch to merge the city and county.
The state is holding STL back, not the other way around.
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While I don't think you all are arguing with me directly, with regard to the State forcing change in the region, I never wrote "save" nor did I claim that combining regional services somehow will be a panacea.
It's one of many things the region needs to do to improve and I don't think the regional leaders/politicians can get it done. They are zero for my lifetime. So, perhaps the state can.
It's one of many things the region needs to do to improve and I don't think the regional leaders/politicians can get it done. They are zero for my lifetime. So, perhaps the state can.
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The state certainly holds St. Louis back too. My only point was the regions population decline and crime has an outsized impact on Missouri’s as its largest region. The state is probably going to want to do something about that at some point. I’m not going to claim that it’s definitely going to work anything, I’m just saying it seems like something that will happen sooner than later.StlAlex wrote:Yea i think you're lot in real life if you think the single largest thorn in the side of St. Louis is magically gonna come save us
There was already GOP opposition to Page's pitch to merge the city and county.
The state is holding STL back, not the other way around.
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The state has spent decades designing policies to ensure STL has slow growth and high crime. They are a major reason for all of our problems. They aren't gonna want to "fix" it because it's exactly what they want.STLcommenter wrote:The state certainly holds St. Louis back too. My only point was the regions population decline and crime has an outsized impact on Missouri’s as its largest region. The state is probably going to want to do something about that at some point. I’m not going to claim that it’s definitely going to work anything, I’m just saying it seems like something that will happen sooner than later.StlAlex wrote:Yea i think you're lot in real life if you think the single largest thorn in the side of St. Louis is magically gonna come save us
There was already GOP opposition to Page's pitch to merge the city and county.
The state is holding STL back, not the other way around.
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So, maybe I'm overreaching here, but considering the scope of ideas that forumers have here for the future of the city and now the access to AI imaging which I've seen on display, has anyone ever proposed teaming up to make a comprehensive plan for the ideal future of Downtown? Honestly it feels like you all could do a better job creating a vision of the possible future of things than the City and definitely the state. At the very least, it would be a good chance to compile all the ideas that people have had here into one place. I'm thinking something like the Burnham Plan for Chicago. Something aspirational but rooted in the desire to overcome current problems that everyone sees holding Downtown back from future growth.
I have an idea in mind of how to structure it, and if I can get 12 or more people involved I'd be down to start a new thread about it either here in the Retail, Restaurant & Business Dev or Urban Living Category. It's basically just what everyone is proposing on the forum anyway, but building toward a final cohesive blueprint.
I have an idea in mind of how to structure it, and if I can get 12 or more people involved I'd be down to start a new thread about it either here in the Retail, Restaurant & Business Dev or Urban Living Category. It's basically just what everyone is proposing on the forum anyway, but building toward a final cohesive blueprint.
Checkout the Minneapolis 2040 plan. It did a good job helping MPLS grow strategically. Specifically downtown. Downtown has more than 60k residents the 12th most in a US downtown. 20 years ago it had significantly more surface parking than downtown STL.oakangeles wrote: ↑11:34 PM - 14 days agoSo, maybe I'm overreaching here, but considering the scope of ideas that forumers have here for the future of the city and now the access to AI imaging which I've seen on display, has anyone ever proposed teaming up to make a comprehensive plan for the ideal future of Downtown? Honestly it feels like you all could do a better job creating a vision of the possible future of things than the City and definitely the state. At the very least, it would be a good chance to compile all the ideas that people have had here into one place. I'm thinking something like the Burnham Plan for Chicago. Something aspirational but rooted in the desire to overcome current problems that everyone sees holding Downtown back from future growth.
I have an idea in mind of how to structure it, and if I can get 12 or more people involved I'd be down to start a new thread about it either here in the Retail, Restaurant & Business Dev or Urban Living Category. It's basically just what everyone is proposing on the forum anyway, but building toward a final cohesive blueprint.