urbanSTL

Construction and trade craft and especially skilled labor has been and continues to be good paying jobs in my thirty or more years working in contracting, estimating project costs on public and private, and managing non union & union crews as well as sitting through a few union negotiations in my time.    

But these jobs are also hourly wage and highly dependent on projects being funded (public works) and or financed (private).   Private work is by far the biggest portion for those who get the numerous trade magazines and periodicals.   Shut off the commercial market in St. Louis and you have the true wage killers in construction IMO  That is being no work period, no wages and or a life away from home in Texas/gulf building an LNG terminal or a data center where literally the bulk of construction new starts is happening right now.  

My two cents is simple.   Not having projects is the true wage killer in the construction.   There is a balance and believe city made a mistake in trying to apply prevailing wages that will kill some private work projects that would keep more people employed & earning a decent wage.   Simple put, as someone who makes a living puts hard cost to a project bid prevailing wages or manning/apprentice requirements add costs and being union built adds even more.   

What would be better?  Ideally Federal minimum wage desperately needs to be raised instead of this hodgepodge spread across the different states   In meantime? Overtime rules are already codified in law as well as protections against wage theft which at end of day are poorly enforced.  Prevailing wages work on public projects is fine because that is we have decided as taxpayers or at least have agreed upon.  However,  the city would be in a better position seeking and making sure current labor laws are being enforced for worker while encouraging more development.  

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

1:57 PM - Jan 25

Here is what the local union shop pays for an inside wiremen

That's the actual base hourly wage paid to union electricians. That does not include fringe benefits. Conversely, the prevailing wage amount includes both wage and the cash value of fringe if no or only some benefits are offered. So a union worker typically exceeds prevailing wage when those are combined, but a worker that has minimal or no fringe benefits gets that paid out to them in the form of increased hourly wage. The whole point is to make an even playing field for contractors by having all on-site workers being compensated in a minimum manner. There are non-union contractors that exceed prevailing wage by default. I certainly try to pay myself more than prevailing wage when I am working in the field, because I am trading my body and skills for money, and that shouldn't be done cheaply.

Why a lawfirm is staying downtown

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

3:09 AM - Jan 26

Why a lawfirm is staying downtown

This is great news of course. But the fact that 70% of their firm lives in the Metro East is pretty unusual. That’s far from the case typically and makes a move to Clayton much easier.

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

3:13 AM - Jan 26

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

3:09 AM - Jan 26

Why a lawfirm is staying downtown

This is great news of course. But the fact that 70% of their firm lives in the Metro East is pretty unusual. That’s far from the case typically and makes a move to Clayton much easier.

Chair of Thompson Coburn told
Me that 50% of their 500 are from metro east

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

3:28 AM - Jan 26

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

3:13 AM - Jan 26

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

3:09 AM - Jan 26

Why a lawfirm is staying downtown

This is great news of course. But the fact that 70% of their firm lives in the Metro East is pretty unusual. That’s far from the case typically and makes a move to Clayton much easier.

Chair of Thompson Coburn told
Me that 50% of their 500 are from metro east

I’ve heard differently at Coburn. But my point is for the most part, Clayton is more Central to the white collar workforce in this area than DT. That firm with 70% of its workforce living in the Metro East is unusual.

This is not new news. This law firm moved from 100 Broadway and was announced last year.

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Might've been news to the rest of us. What's the point of rebutting this? It's good news.

StlAlex wrote: ↑

9:47 AM - Jan 26

This is not new news. This law firm moved from 100 Broadway and was announced last year.

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It isn’t news that they’re staying, the reasoning and thought process on why is news

dbInSouthCity wrote:Get familiar with 3CDC

https://www.3cdc.org/

Have heard great things about them and been hoping for a similar organization for St. Louis

STLcommenter wrote: ↑

10:16 PM - Jan 27

dbInSouthCity wrote:Get familiar with 3CDC

https://www.3cdc.org/

Have heard great things about them and been hoping for a similar organization for St. Louis

The ceo of it has been to STL multi times in the last year to meet with local leaders. I’ll have more on this in a month or so

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

1:25 AM - Jan 28

STLcommenter wrote: ↑

10:16 PM - Jan 27

dbInSouthCity wrote:Get familiar with 3CDC

https://www.3cdc.org/

Have heard great things about them and been hoping for a similar organization for St. Louis

The ceo of it has been to STL multi times in the last year to meet with local leaders.   I’ll have more on this in a month or so

Alot of really cool completed and in progress projects. 

dredger wrote: ↑

6:24 PM - Jan 25

Construction and trade craft and especially skilled labor has been and continues to be good paying jobs in my thirty or more years working in contracting, estimating project costs on public and private, and managing non union & union crews as well as sitting through a few union negotiations in my time.    

But these jobs are also hourly wage and highly dependent on projects being funded (public works) and or financed (private).   Private work is by far the biggest portion for those who get the numerous trade magazines and periodicals.   Shut off the commercial market in St. Louis and you have the true wage killers in construction IMO  That is being no work period, no wages and or a life away from home in Texas/gulf building an LNG terminal or a data center where literally the bulk of construction new starts is happening right now.  

My two cents is simple.   Not having projects is the true wage killer in the construction.   There is a balance and believe city made a mistake in trying to apply prevailing wages that will kill some private work projects that would keep more people employed & earning a decent wage.   Simple put, as someone who makes a living puts hard cost to a project bid prevailing wages or manning/apprentice requirements add costs and being union built adds even more.   

What would be better?  Ideally Federal minimum wage desperately needs to be raised instead of this hodgepodge spread across the different states   In meantime? Overtime rules are already codified in law as well as protections against wage theft which at end of day are poorly enforced.  Prevailing wages work on public projects is fine because that is we have decided as taxpayers or at least have agreed upon.  However,  the city would be in a better position seeking and making sure current labor laws are being enforced for worker while encouraging more development.  

Good points and I agree on your proposed solutions. Won't hold my breath for federal MW action or existing labor law enforcement. Current admin would prefer a race to the bottom; let's remember our dear leader gained considerable notoriety as a developer for consistently screwing his contractors and vendors and forcing them into court to settle debts.

Regarding the City, I accept that mandating PW as a condition of receiving public subsidy of private projects may deter such projects. However, I think the City is well within their rights and it's also the morally correct thing to do. I'll note that after 20 years of the Slay regime (including Krewson, same disposition) giving developers whatever they wanted without question, the City isn't any better off financially and the population continues to shrink. Yes, we got some shiny new buildings, a temporarily revived Loft district, and more Eds and Meds expansions/renewal (mostly tax-exempt), but so what?!? Apart from a few neighborhoods, the rest of the City continues to deteriorate while families and businesses head for the exits. By this measure, public subsidy schemes, with some exceptions, have failed to deliver on their promised benefits. The trade off between fewer projects with more public benefit is smart policy from my perspective.

SB in BH wrote: ↑

9:42 PM - Feb 02

dredger wrote: ↑

6:24 PM - Jan 25

Construction and trade craft and especially skilled labor has been and continues to be good paying jobs in my thirty or more years working in contracting, estimating project costs on public and private, and managing non union & union crews as well as sitting through a few union negotiations in my time.    

But these jobs are also hourly wage and highly dependent on projects being funded (public works) and or financed (private).   Private work is by far the biggest portion for those who get the numerous trade magazines and periodicals.   Shut off the commercial market in St. Louis and you have the true wage killers in construction IMO  That is being no work period, no wages and or a life away from home in Texas/gulf building an LNG terminal or a data center where literally the bulk of construction new starts is happening right now.  

My two cents is simple.   Not having projects is the true wage killer in the construction.   There is a balance and believe city made a mistake in trying to apply prevailing wages that will kill some private work projects that would keep more people employed & earning a decent wage.   Simple put, as someone who makes a living puts hard cost to a project bid prevailing wages or manning/apprentice requirements add costs and being union built adds even more.   

What would be better?  Ideally Federal minimum wage desperately needs to be raised instead of this hodgepodge spread across the different states   In meantime? Overtime rules are already codified in law as well as protections against wage theft which at end of day are poorly enforced.  Prevailing wages work on public projects is fine because that is we have decided as taxpayers or at least have agreed upon.  However,  the city would be in a better position seeking and making sure current labor laws are being enforced for worker while encouraging more development.  

Good points and I agree on your proposed solutions. Won't hold my breath for federal MW action or existing labor law enforcement. Current admin would prefer a race to the bottom; let's remember our dear leader gained considerable notoriety as a developer for consistently screwing his contractors and vendors and forcing them into court to settle debts.

Regarding the City, I accept that mandating PW as a condition of receiving public subsidy of private projects may deter such projects. However, I think the City is well within their rights and it's also the morally correct thing to do. I'll note that after 20 years of the Slay regime (including Krewson, same disposition) giving developers whatever they wanted without question, the City isn't any better off financially and the population continues to shrink. Yes, we got some shiny new buildings, a temporarily revived Loft district, and more Eds and Meds expansions/renewal (mostly tax-exempt), but so what?!? Apart from a few neighborhoods, the rest of the City continues to deteriorate while families and businesses head for the exits. By this measure, public subsidy schemes, with some exceptions, have failed to deliver on their promised benefits. The trade off between fewer projects with more public benefit is smart policy from my perspective.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and I align with several of your thoughts except one. The city is markedly better off financially and it will continue to get better as all of those TIFs mature.  The subsidies worked, supported redevelopment, and propped up a lower population bottom.  The painful exception being Northside Regeneration which continues to harm us all in extremely painful ways. 

robertn42 wrote:

SB in BH wrote: ↑

9:42 PM - Feb 02

dredger wrote: ↑

6:24 PM - Jan 25

Construction and trade craft and especially skilled labor has been and continues to be good paying jobs in my thirty or more years working in contracting, estimating project costs on public and private, and managing non union & union crews as well as sitting through a few union negotiations in my time.    

But these jobs are also hourly wage and highly dependent on projects being funded (public works) and or financed (private).   Private work is by far the biggest portion for those who get the numerous trade magazines and periodicals.   Shut off the commercial market in St. Louis and you have the true wage killers in construction IMO  That is being no work period, no wages and or a life away from home in Texas/gulf building an LNG terminal or a data center where literally the bulk of construction new starts is happening right now.  

My two cents is simple.   Not having projects is the true wage killer in the construction.   There is a balance and believe city made a mistake in trying to apply prevailing wages that will kill some private work projects that would keep more people employed & earning a decent wage.   Simple put, as someone who makes a living puts hard cost to a project bid prevailing wages or manning/apprentice requirements add costs and being union built adds even more.   

What would be better?  Ideally Federal minimum wage desperately needs to be raised instead of this hodgepodge spread across the different states   In meantime? Overtime rules are already codified in law as well as protections against wage theft which at end of day are poorly enforced.  Prevailing wages work on public projects is fine because that is we have decided as taxpayers or at least have agreed upon.  However,  the city would be in a better position seeking and making sure current labor laws are being enforced for worker while encouraging more development.  

Good points and I agree on your proposed solutions. Won't hold my breath for federal MW action or existing labor law enforcement. Current admin would prefer a race to the bottom; let's remember our dear leader gained considerable notoriety as a developer for consistently screwing his contractors and vendors and forcing them into court to settle debts.

Regarding the City, I accept that mandating PW as a condition of receiving public subsidy of private projects may deter such projects. However, I think the City is well within their rights and it's also the morally correct thing to do. I'll note that after 20 years of the Slay regime (including Krewson, same disposition) giving developers whatever they wanted without question, the City isn't any better off financially and the population continues to shrink. Yes, we got some shiny new buildings, a temporarily revived Loft district, and more Eds and Meds expansions/renewal (mostly tax-exempt), but so what?!? Apart from a few neighborhoods, the rest of the City continues to deteriorate while families and businesses head for the exits. By this measure, public subsidy schemes, with some exceptions, have failed to deliver on their promised benefits. The trade off between fewer projects with more public benefit is smart policy from my perspective.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and I align with several of your thoughts except one. The city is markedly better off financially and it will continue to get better as all of those TIFs mature.  The subsidies worked, supported redevelopment, and propped up a lower population bottom.  The painful exception being Northside Regeneration which continues to harm us all in extremely painful ways. 

If you look back at this forum in like 2010, you'll see people expected the city's population to be ~360k. Today it's ~285k and is gonna drop lower due to the tornado.

The expectation on the tax subsidies were population growth, not continued decline.

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robertn42 wrote: ↑

1:43 AM - Feb 03

SB in BH wrote: ↑

9:42 PM - Feb 02

dredger wrote: ↑

6:24 PM - Jan 25

Construction and trade craft and especially skilled labor has been and continues to be good paying jobs in my thirty or more years working in contracting, estimating project costs on public and private, and managing non union & union crews as well as sitting through a few union negotiations in my time.    

But these jobs are also hourly wage and highly dependent on projects being funded (public works) and or financed (private).   Private work is by far the biggest portion for those who get the numerous trade magazines and periodicals.   Shut off the commercial market in St. Louis and you have the true wage killers in construction IMO  That is being no work period, no wages and or a life away from home in Texas/gulf building an LNG terminal or a data center where literally the bulk of construction new starts is happening right now.  

My two cents is simple.   Not having projects is the true wage killer in the construction.   There is a balance and believe city made a mistake in trying to apply prevailing wages that will kill some private work projects that would keep more people employed & earning a decent wage.   Simple put, as someone who makes a living puts hard cost to a project bid prevailing wages or manning/apprentice requirements add costs and being union built adds even more.   

What would be better?  Ideally Federal minimum wage desperately needs to be raised instead of this hodgepodge spread across the different states   In meantime? Overtime rules are already codified in law as well as protections against wage theft which at end of day are poorly enforced.  Prevailing wages work on public projects is fine because that is we have decided as taxpayers or at least have agreed upon.  However,  the city would be in a better position seeking and making sure current labor laws are being enforced for worker while encouraging more development.  

Good points and I agree on your proposed solutions. Won't hold my breath for federal MW action or existing labor law enforcement. Current admin would prefer a race to the bottom; let's remember our dear leader gained considerable notoriety as a developer for consistently screwing his contractors and vendors and forcing them into court to settle debts.

Regarding the City, I accept that mandating PW as a condition of receiving public subsidy of private projects may deter such projects. However, I think the City is well within their rights and it's also the morally correct thing to do. I'll note that after 20 years of the Slay regime (including Krewson, same disposition) giving developers whatever they wanted without question, the City isn't any better off financially and the population continues to shrink. Yes, we got some shiny new buildings, a temporarily revived Loft district, and more Eds and Meds expansions/renewal (mostly tax-exempt), but so what?!? Apart from a few neighborhoods, the rest of the City continues to deteriorate while families and businesses head for the exits. By this measure, public subsidy schemes, with some exceptions, have failed to deliver on their promised benefits. The trade off between fewer projects with more public benefit is smart policy from my perspective.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and I align with several of your thoughts except one. The city is markedly better off financially and it will continue to get better as all of those TIFs mature.  The subsidies worked, supported redevelopment, and propped up a lower population bottom.  The painful exception being Northside Regeneration which continues to harm us all in extremely painful ways. 

Thanks. I'd like to believe your prediction re TIFs maturing but I'm just not sure. It would be great for SLDC to do a review of past TIF projects and whether/how their tax yield changed 1, 5, 10 years after the TIF and/or abatement period expired. Should be a large cohort of these projects from ~2000-2010 available to study, but I've not heard of any intention to do so.

Regarding the City's present financial condition, its hard to tease out the exact effect of unprecedent federal subsidy during the COVID years, but its certainly a significant factor. Recent budget surpluses are due almost entirely to the City's inability to hire enough staff to carry out budgeted work. Not sure that's really a victory if "services not rendered" degrades quality of life and/or defers essential work that will only get more expensive over time.

SB in BH wrote: ↑

4:27 PM - Feb 03

robertn42 wrote: ↑

1:43 AM - Feb 03

SB in BH wrote: ↑

9:42 PM - Feb 02

Good points and I agree on your proposed solutions. Won't hold my breath for federal MW action or existing labor law enforcement. Current admin would prefer a race to the bottom; let's remember our dear leader gained considerable notoriety as a developer for consistently screwing his contractors and vendors and forcing them into court to settle debts.

Regarding the City, I accept that mandating PW as a condition of receiving public subsidy of private projects may deter such projects. However, I think the City is well within their rights and it's also the morally correct thing to do. I'll note that after 20 years of the Slay regime (including Krewson, same disposition) giving developers whatever they wanted without question, the City isn't any better off financially and the population continues to shrink. Yes, we got some shiny new buildings, a temporarily revived Loft district, and more Eds and Meds expansions/renewal (mostly tax-exempt), but so what?!? Apart from a few neighborhoods, the rest of the City continues to deteriorate while families and businesses head for the exits. By this measure, public subsidy schemes, with some exceptions, have failed to deliver on their promised benefits. The trade off between fewer projects with more public benefit is smart policy from my perspective.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and I align with several of your thoughts except one. The city is markedly better off financially and it will continue to get better as all of those TIFs mature.  The subsidies worked, supported redevelopment, and propped up a lower population bottom.  The painful exception being Northside Regeneration which continues to harm us all in extremely painful ways. 

Thanks. I'd like to believe your prediction re TIFs maturing but I'm just not sure. It would be great for SLDC to do a review of past TIF projects and whether/how their tax yield changed 1, 5, 10 years after the TIF and/or abatement period expired. Should be a large cohort of these projects from ~2000-2010 available to study, but I've not heard of any intention to do so.

Regarding the City's present financial condition, its hard to tease out the exact effect of unprecedent federal subsidy during the COVID years, but its certainly a significant factor. Recent budget surpluses are due almost entirely to the City's inability to hire enough staff to carry out budgeted work. Not sure that's really a victory if "services not rendered" degrades quality of life and/or defers essential work that will only get more expensive over time.

Covid funds are a dollar in and a dollar out, no impact on city budget.

Surpluses are mostly because of not being fully staffed but the city has never been fully staffed, it’s always been short over 500 workers (1,200 today).  Growth in earnings tax is a big part as is some growth in sales tax.

Development plans for 1,000 room hotel announced for the Louisville Humana tower (their 4th tallest building) which very recently lost its primary tenant Humana. Very quick turnaround

I know that Louisville may even have some greater pops in tourism despite being smaller and its Main Street is in considerably better shape than our comparable Wash Ave I’d say but they already have a new Omni and Moxy (each of which StL has been trying to get for years and can’t). Just shocked to see how quickly they turned a not so attractive building into a hotel development while our decades of vacancy stack up on historic buildings like Railway and Chemical. And as buildings continue to empty in downtown, we have been slow to see any of them turned over for new plans. AT&T is maybe a comparable case (though it sat vacant for much longer) and I’m not sure that’s even going anywhere at this point.

Just not sure what we aren’t doing right compared to a place like Louisville to turn vacant office into new development so quickly

keepstlbrick wrote:Development plans for 1,000 room hotel announced for the Louisville Humana tower (their 4th tallest building) which very recently lost its primary tenant Humana. Very quick turnaround

I know that Louisville may even have some greater pops in tourism despite being smaller and its Main Street is in considerably better shape than our comparable Wash Ave I’d say but they already have a new Omni and Moxy (each of which StL has been trying to get for years and can’t). Just shocked to see how quickly they turned a not so attractive building into a hotel development while our decades of vacancy stack up on historic buildings like Railway and Chemical. And as buildings continue to empty in downtown, we have been slow to see any of them turned over for new plans. AT&T is maybe a comparable case (though it sat vacant for much longer) and I’m not sure that’s even going anywhere at this point.

Just not sure what we aren’t doing right compared to a place like Louisville to turn vacant office into new development so quickly

There's some noteworthy differneces here.

1) The building is only 525,000 square feet, significantly smaller than ATT or RWX and way newer than Chemical.

2) This building is just 1 part of a much larger redevelopment that includes a new construction tower and multiple buildings along Main St.

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I see a consistent pattern whenever someone points out how smaller metros are doing things with more expediency or quality than us. Several posters here rush in to make excuses, point out differences, etc. Rarely is there simple admittance that our leadership sucks. Besides probably DB, Brennan and LaMartina, the civic and political leadership is unintelligent, way too emotional, ineffective and most assuredly corrupt AF.

We suck. Both St. Louis city and county. And our press won’t acknowledge nor call them out.

For example, the greatest savior of the STL metro’s middle class was Sen Schmitt’s influence on getting various defense contracts funneled to Boeing. A few of my friends who work at Boeing say that there is a chance, a chance, that at the maximum these deals could produce upwards of 20,000 jobs making between $70-$200K over the next decade.

That’s incredible. But because Schmitt is a Republican these developments get scant praise.

So, combine the ineffective local leadership with a media that’s more concerned with an agenda, we get nothing. Zero.

dweebe wrote: ↑

4:27 PM - Feb 04

keepstlbrick wrote: ↑

11:47 PM - Feb 03

Development plans for 1,000 room hotel announced for the Louisville Humana tower (their 4th tallest building) which very recently lost its primary tenant Humana. Very quick turnaround

I know that Louisville may even have some greater pops in tourism despite being smaller and its Main Street is in considerably better shape than our comparable Wash Ave I’d say but they already have a new Omni and Moxy (each of which StL has been trying to get for years and can’t). Just shocked to see how quickly they turned a not so attractive building into a hotel development while our decades of vacancy stack up on historic buildings like Railway and Chemical. And as buildings continue to empty in downtown, we have been slow to see any of them turned over for new plans. AT&T is maybe a comparable case (though it sat vacant for much longer) and I’m not sure that’s even going anywhere at this point.

Just not sure what we aren’t doing right compared to a place like Louisville to turn vacant office into new development so quickly

Louisville might be under-hoteled and that 1000 room development could well be filling a gap.

Louisville's clustering of hotels is much different than St. Louis. In Louisville everything is either downtown or by Churchill Downs/Louisville University/airport area. St. Louis is much more evenly spread out with stuff all along the Midtown/Cortex/CWE/Clayton axis. Plus Louisville doesn't have a Four Seasons, a Ritz Carlton or a Westin like we do.

But please: tell me more about how St. Louis sucks and Louisville kicks ass because they're getting a big new hotel.

Not about StL sucking and Louisville being great, I am actually saying the opposite. I am looking at it going, how come we cannot seem to turn over our vacant office into new development lately? Don’t we have more to offer than Louisville? Seeing office buildings in other metros turn over so quickly is just disheartening while we watch some of our most treasured buildings rot

StlAlex wrote: ↑

4:32 PM - Feb 04

whitherSTL wrote:I see a consistent pattern whenever someone points out how smaller metros are doing things with more expediency or quality than us. Several posters here rush in to make excuses, point out differences, etc. Rarely is there simple admittance that our leadership sucks. Besides probably DB, Brennan and LaMartina, the civic and political leadership is unintelligent, way too emotional, ineffective and most assuredly corrupt AF.

We suck. Both St. Louis city and county. And our press won’t acknowledge nor call them out.

For example, the greatest savior of the STL metro’s middle class was Sen Schmitt’s influence on getting various defense contracts funneled to Boeing. A few of my friends who work at Boeing say that there is a chance, a chance, that at the maximum these deals could produce upwards of 20,000 jobs making between $70-$200K over the next decade.

That’s incredible. But because Schmitt is a Republican these developments get scant praise.

So, combine the ineffective local leadership with a media that’s more concerned with an agenda, we get nothing. Zero.

Our bad for not dick-sucking the Military Industrial Complex like you love to do.

And I guess you just forgot about the Millennium Hotel redevelopment? That's actually further along than this Humana redevelopment and is way more comparable in size and price. Or is that only happening because of Eric Schmidt too?

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Spare us your feelings about the military industrial complex, Auggie. That complex partially built our metro area due to MD and General Dynamics; deal with it, it’s real.

It also helped build Seattle, Dallas and the northern Virginia suburbs.

Your non-stop anger and cussing is emblematic of your unhappiness.

Join the real world, not your feelings-based fantasyland.