urbanSTL

STLcommenter wrote: ↑

8:25 PM - Jan 22

Would be completely fine with this building getting torn down and replaced with a soccer oriented development. Whether that be bars/restaurants, a hotel, apartments, etc.

This area is begging to feed off of the soccer stadium. While we’re at it, the City View commie towers can go too. Chestnut St would be a fantastic little entertainment district. It would be an easy walkable destination for Blues fans, CITY fans, and concert goers. It also has a great view of the Arch and would encourage people to explore the Gateway Mall.

Speaking of soccer development... this alleged boom of development that seemed to be bubbling up in downtown west...obviously inflation and stagnation, etc etc...but is ANYTHING actually still in the realistic run for kicking off? The developer behind the timber tower keeps saying they're going to start construction on the lesser prominent infill, but it remains to be seen. Then there was some sort of project announced for west of the stadium that would've been the whole block, what happened there? The corner of Market and Jefferson is a big hole still. Is inflation and Trumpenomics to blame for this lack of boom we thought would have occurred by now? Or is it the city itself getting in the way? 

Couple things- costs of building in STL are elevated for revenue the project can generate. In the past we got around that with incentives. But last Feb alders passed a bill 14-0 that applied prevailing wage (generally only required on public projects) to be applicable on private projects that get incentives. So now that incentive isn’t really worth as much if your cost of labor is inflated by prevailing wage. This is a far bigger issue for ground up as it doesn’t have many other incentives like a renovation/conversion with historic tax credits. I’m working on rolling back the PW on private incentivized projects, either the board will roll it back or the state will come over the top in the up coming downtown innovation districts bill

Why did no one from SLDC or development firms step up to warn that it would have that impact? I hate when the state has to step in but holy crap that seems like such an obvious self-own.

I can’t imagine we’re going to see any major developments move forward until that’s removed.

Massive self own: *Requiring private companies begging for tax money to pay an average wage to their workers*

It makes sense why America is a dying country.

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^Let's see what policies actually work to change the course of the City. When some policies have actively ground new development to a halt, then you need to examine why that's the case. And it's not just inflation or tariffs. There are local policies at play too. St. Louis was on a roll prior to covid, then that happened and the Tishaura Administration's reimagination of incentives in the name of "economic justice" came along. Add on the inflation that occurred after that, and you got three strikes in a row for an already difficult market like St. Louis. The prevailing wage thing seemed silly since the Unions negotiate wages and those wages are paid accordingly and most construction labor in the City is Union.

I see no problem experimenting with different policies, but it's clear some things work, and others fail, to induce development of all kinds and sizes. Admit the failure of some policies, repeal them, and move ahead again.

There's a lot of money willing to invest in the City, but it's locked up until conditions change. Investors want returns on their money. Banks want to make sure they're repaid. The City wants additional residents and businesses to increase the tax base and stop the decline. And those of us on a forum like this want new things (redevelopments and new buildings) completed. A whole lot of wants, but not many means to accomplish those things at this time. Inflation already occurred at record levels, so elevated prices are here to stay. Tariffs are still iffy, but could be shot down by the Supreme Court. Local policy needs to change. Knock 2/3 things out and I believe we'll be seeing projects start moving forward again.

Chris Stritzel wrote:^Let's see what policies actually work to change the course of the City. When some policies have actively ground new development to a halt, then you need to examine why that's the case. And it's not just inflation or tariffs. There are local policies at play too. St. Louis was on a roll prior to covid, then that happened and the Tishaura Administration's reimagination of incentives in the name of "economic justice" came along. Add on the inflation that occurred after that, and you got three strikes in a row for an already difficult market like St. Louis. The prevailing wage thing seemed silly since the Unions negotiate wages and those wages are paid accordingly and most construction labor in the City is Union.

I see no problem experimenting with different policies, but it's clear some things work, and others fail, to induce development of all kinds and sizes. Admit the failure of some policies, repeal them, and move ahead again.

There's a lot of money willing to invest in the City, but it's locked up until conditions change. Investors want returns on their money. Banks want to make sure they're repaid. The City wants additional residents and businesses to increase the tax base and stop the decline. And those of us on a forum like this want new things (redevelopments and new buildings) completed. A whole lot of wants, but not many means to accomplish those things at this time. Inflation already occurred at record levels, so elevated prices are here to stay. Tariffs are still iffy, but could be shot down by the Supreme Court. Local policy needs to change. Knock 2/3 things out and I believe we'll be seeing projects start moving forward again.

You're right, all we need to do is go back to what we have been doing for the last 25 years. At some point, the development curve will kick in. As we know, 90% of gamblers quit right before they win big.

I guess it's true that straight white males do not care much about economic justice in a country designed for them to thrive at the expense of others. A few more years of neoliberal trickle down economics and I'm sure we would start seeing this city's destroyed neighborhoods start growing again, I'm sure of it.

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Yeah, you can get lost whining about prevailing wages.

City is the only entity in the state that started requiring it on private projects. Many alders know realize it’s a mistake. Unions will benefit more with more projects, not a few and PW

Idc. Paying prevailing wage is the right thing to do.

Should we just go right to work too?

JaneJacobsGhost wrote:Idc. Paying prevailing wage is the right thing to do.

Should we just go right to work too?

Problem is when St. Louis has to compete against a bunch of markets undercutting it on labor. And I hate it but I don’t know a way around it.


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Fraydog wrote:

JaneJacobsGhost wrote:Idc. Paying prevailing wage is the right thing to do.

Should we just go right to work too?

Problem is when St. Louis has to compete against a bunch of markets undercutting it on labor. And I hate it but I don’t know a way around it.


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I don't necessarily disagree. And I wouldn't even argue against a repeal if there is actual evidnce this is what's holding up projects. But the framing of doing something morally right as a "self own" because the immoral system rejects it is not needed. Thats more what I take issue with. Workers should be paid a solid middle class income for their work, it's what's right and it's what we did back when this country wasn't dying.

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It’s great to see ol’ Auggie reinvent himself as STLAlex….

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

10:44 AM - Jan 23

It’s great to see ol’ Auggie reinvent himself as STLAlex….

Haha.  I was thinking the same thing. For the most part, any project of substantial size relies on subcontractors who are paid a prevailing wage, as this is the only practical way to scale operations sufficiently to execute projects of that magnitude in STL.  Otherwise the trades people will go to a shop that does. 

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

11:59 PM - Jan 22

Idc. Paying prevailing wage is the right thing to do.

Should we just go right to work too?

So if projects happen less often, because of prevailing wage, are the people who get paid the prevailing wage better off?  

Or would they benefit if they got paid more often, but less than the prevailing wage?

Which one is morally correct?

STLAPTS wrote:

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

10:44 AM - Jan 23

It’s great to see ol’ Auggie reinvent himself as STLAlex….

Haha.  I was thinking the same thing. For the most part, any project of substantial size relies on subcontractors who are paid a prevailing wage, as this is the only practical way to scale operations sufficiently to execute projects of that magnitude in STL.  Otherwise the trades people will go to a shop that does. 

Are you saying that contractors are typically paid the prevailing wage regardless of what the law says?

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I would be surprised if that were not the case.

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

9:44 PM - Jan 23

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑

8:45 PM - Jan 23

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

11:59 PM - Jan 22

Idc. Paying prevailing wage is the right thing to do.

Should we just go right to work too?

So if projects happen less often, because of prevailing wage, are the people who get paid the prevailing wage better off?  

Or would they benefit if they got paid more often, but less than the prevailing wage?

Which one is morally correct?

Your little exercise here is based on the assumption that paying prevailing wages kills job opportunities which has not been proven to be accurate.

Again, people deserve a dignified wage for their labor. Luckily we have labor unions to help us discover what that wage is in the trades and construction labor markets.

I mean - there's also really no way to prove they don't kill job opportunities either.... 

I have been in many union halls - there are more shenanigans happening there than almost anywhere.

StlAlex wrote: ↑

8:51 PM - Jan 23

STLAPTS wrote:

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

10:44 AM - Jan 23

It’s great to see ol’ Auggie reinvent himself as STLAlex….

Haha.  I was thinking the same thing. For the most part, any project of substantial size relies on subcontractors who are paid a prevailing wage, as this is the only practical way to scale operations sufficiently to execute projects of that magnitude in STL.  Otherwise the trades people will go to a shop that does. 

Are you saying that contractors are typically paid the prevailing wage regardless of what the law says?

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Yes. Specifically on larger projects.  Especially new construction. The only contractors capable of completing those projects are large employers who  pay a prevailing wage.  It is the smaller contractors who usually don't.  The contractors that you would see at South City rehabs or small commercial jobs. 

Spoke to a developer doing a $15m project that said this has increased his hard costs

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑

10:04 PM - Jan 23

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

9:44 PM - Jan 23

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑

8:45 PM - Jan 23

So if projects happen less often, because of prevailing wage, are the people who get paid the prevailing wage better off?  

Or would they benefit if they got paid more often, but less than the prevailing wage?

Which one is morally correct?

Your little exercise here is based on the assumption that paying prevailing wages kills job opportunities which has not been proven to be accurate.

Again, people deserve a dignified wage for their labor. Luckily we have labor unions to help us discover what that wage is in the trades and construction labor markets.

I mean - there's also really no way to prove they don't kill job opportunities either.... 

I have been in many union halls - there are more shenanigans happening there than almost anywhere.

OK so you agree you have no idea what the effect is and yet you want to kill people’s wages.

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

2:28 PM - Jan 24

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑

10:04 PM - Jan 23

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

9:44 PM - Jan 23

Your little exercise here is based on the assumption that paying prevailing wages kills job opportunities which has not been proven to be accurate.

Again, people deserve a dignified wage for their labor. Luckily we have labor unions to help us discover what that wage is in the trades and construction labor markets.

I mean - there's also really no way to prove they don't kill job opportunities either.... 

I have been in many union halls - there are more shenanigans happening there than almost anywhere.

OK so you agree you have no idea what the effect is and yet you want to kill people’s wages.

It's obvious that asking contractor to pay more for employees increases cost and that could make projects less profitable. It always sounds good to pay people more, but that also makes the cost of living higher.  It make sense that the city government pushes contractors to pay higher wages to their workers, however the government needs to be careful about how much to push, there needs to be a balance.

Rick Prieto wrote:

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

2:28 PM - Jan 24

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑

10:04 PM - Jan 23

I mean - there's also really no way to prove they don't kill job opportunities either.... 

I have been in many union halls - there are more shenanigans happening there than almost anywhere.

OK so you agree you have no idea what the effect is and yet you want to kill people’s wages.

It's obvious that asking contractor to pay more for employees increases cost and that could make projects less profitable. It always sounds good to pay people more, but that also makes the cost of living higher.  It make sense that the city government pushes contractors to pay higher wages to their workers, however the government needs to be careful about how much to push, there needs to be a balance.

Prevailing wage is not asking "more", it's asking an average middle class wage if you are utilizing government subsidy for your for-profit private development.

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Current PW rates in the city