The State of Downtown

stlgasm · Post5:43 PM - Jan 09#73762026-01-09T17:43+00:00

YES! The periphery of downtown is begging for rowhouses and townhouses to restore the connective tissue between downtown and outer neighborhoods. We should look to Philly as a model -- seamless, walkable transitions between the CBD and the outlying neighborhoods would do wonders for downtown (and the vacant lots throughout Midtown/Grand Center need some townhouses too, What is taking so long for developers to realize this).

If the Kiener garages must stay, how hard is it to enlist some local mural artists to slap some funky paint on the abysmal monstrosities??? I mean, this is low-hanging fruit and in the scheme of things it can't cost that much to do. Not only would it add a pop of color and improve aesthetics dramatically, but it also would employ local artists and give them a reason to, I don't know, STAY in St. Louis? it also would create a positive buzz and would send a message that cool things are happening here, that downtown is dynamic and imaginative and cool. Every other big city would've been on this 20 years ago. Enough with plans and focus groups and consultant studies- let's just DO it, it's not rocket science.

keepstlbrick · Post5:56 PM - Jan 09#73772026-01-09T17:56+00:00

Those garages are an eyesore, a nuisance, and are not well maintained. I wouldn’t do anything but try to get those properties sold and into hands of new developers.

PeterXCV · Post5:57 PM - Jan 09#73782026-01-09T17:57+00:00

Yeah, I think one of the reasons the CWE feels more green than Downtown despite all the underused parks and plazas they built is because of the housing (both apts and SFHs) with yards. They don't have to be in the front (actually I would prefer if they did not, maybe courtyard block style?) but make things feel more human scaled. Though I might not suggest that for east of Tucker.

leeharveyawesome · Post10:27 PM - Jan 09#73792026-01-09T22:27+00:00

stldotage wrote: ↑
6:28 PM - Jan 08
File this one under "just for fun" but...I was walking around downtown during my lunch break just now and took this wide-angle photo as my "before" shot for a ChatGPT redesign of the Kiener Garage/Plaza blockface:

1000014547.jpgWhen I prompted it to remove the garage and put some rowhouses in instead, it gave me these:

1000014548.png

1000014549.png

I think quite often about how much downtown needs this type of human-scale housing, especially in a post-COVID, increasingly remote-work-friendly world.

Thoughts?

Love it. I suggested this easily 20 years ago. I would line the streets with this type of housing. Build it and they will come. There are some very good examples in the city already. The block by Venice Cafe and I believe the 1800 block of 10th. I wouldn't bling everything out. I would simply provide the quality housing and let people finish it off. Give people a chance to make it their own. Kitchens don't need to be outfitted with THOR appliances. Basically, give people space to customize and let the chips fall. I like the idea of a shared walls because its easier and cost effective and reduces costs. It would take a huge cooperation with whomever is in charge of currently useless spaces and arguments about equity things. Sad part is that all this was already here to begin with and we tore it down.

SB in BH · Post6:40 PM - Jan 12#73802026-01-12T18:40+00:00

quincunx wrote: ↑
11:35 PM - Jan 08
stldotage wrote: ↑
6:28 PM - Jan 08
File this one under "just for fun" but...I was walking around downtown during my lunch break just now and took this wide-angle photo as my "before" shot for a ChatGPT redesign of the Kiener Garage/Plaza blockface:

1000014547.jpgWhen I prompted it to remove the garage and put some rowhouses in instead, it gave me these:

1000014548.png

1000014549.png

I think quite often about how much downtown needs this type of human-scale housing, especially in a post-COVID, increasingly remote-work-friendly world.

Thoughts?
It'd be great. But as always, how do you get the land spectators to sell for a price where building that makes sense?

Land Value Tax--high taxes on land, low/no taxes on improvements. So simple and direct that you can bet your life it will never ever happen.

dweebe · Post9:24 PM - Jan 16#73812026-01-16T21:24+00:00

Not a bad weekend for downtown on a cold grey January weekend.

Blues game Friday night
sold out John Mulaney stand-up at Stifel also Friday night
90% sold country music concert (Rascal Flatts) Saturday night
Monster Jam at the Dome on Saturday and Sunday

StlAlex · Post6:30 AM - Jan 17#73822026-01-17T06:30+00:00

dweebe wrote:Not a bad weekend for downtown on a cold grey January weekend.

Blues game Friday night

sold out John Mulaney stand-up at Stifel also Friday night

90% sold country music concert (Rascal Flatts) Saturday night

Monster Jam at the Dome on Saturday and Sunday

Winter Warm Up for the Cardinals on Sat and Sun at Busch/BPV

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dbInSouthCity · Post7:11 PM - Jan 21#73832026-01-21T19:11+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Dec 27, 2025
New project for 2026, month to month apartment occupancy for these select properties
basically, it's the ones that i know have good public data on availability and its also a good mix of Downtown east of tucker, DT west and the Landing.

We are finishing 2025 with 293 available out of these 2,425 (12%)
next update late Jan 2026

wont have time to update this but from 12/26 to 01/20 these set of buildings increased occupancy by 14 units

Rick Prieto · Post7:46 PM - Jan 21#73842026-01-21T19:46+00:00

that's movement int he right direction!

addxb2 · Post12:24 AM - Jan 22#73852026-01-22T00:24+00:00

Two marketing firms abandon downtown St. Louis tower, leaving entire building empty
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... louis.html

I'm not saying this is the reason for these two specifically but I don't think it helps. Seems like there is no hope in keeping companies that are remote in Downtown or the City. Why would anyone pay 1% for all of their earnings/wages + rent to maintain an address? If they only get their employees together once a month, why not choose the most centrally located office building with surface parking.

PeterXCV · Post12:41 AM - Jan 22#73862026-01-22T00:41+00:00

Ok but so what then? The city is extremely dependent on earnings tax revenue and there's not some better alternative revenue stream waiting in the wings.

JaneJacobsGhost · Post3:02 AM - Jan 22#73872026-01-22T03:02+00:00

The loss property tax revenue may be a bigger problem. Just look at what’s happened to Chicago property taxes as DT Office vacancy hit 28%

Post3:05 AM - Jan 22#73882026-01-22T03:05+00:00

Anyway it’s high time for the city to start offering suburban businesses cold hard cash for moving downtown. Put the surplus to work.

StlAlex · Post5:23 AM - Jan 22#73892026-01-22T05:23+00:00

Since we heard about plans to attract more companies downtown, 3 companies have left downtown. Amazing start.

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Trololzilla · Post6:07 AM - Jan 22#73902026-01-22T06:07+00:00

Cara rackin' up those wins!

dbInSouthCity · Post1:27 PM - Jan 22#73912026-01-22T13:27+00:00

StlAlex wrote: ↑
5:23 AM - Jan 22
Since we heard about plans to attract more companies downtown, 3 companies have left downtown. Amazing start.

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1 moved in, Experience Fresh with 35 people, which when you consider Weber leaving, its a net positive of 11 employees
but there are a lot of unseen move in, 555 Washington Fusion space had 11 of 23 offices occupied last year and today its 21 of 23. its not a lot of employees but about 35 across those 10 and the law firm on another floor of the building doubled its space and is adding people.

soulardx · Post3:29 PM - Jan 22#73922026-01-22T15:29+00:00

addxb2 wrote: ↑
12:24 AM - Jan 22
Two marketing firms abandon downtown St. Louis tower, leaving entire building empty
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... louis.html

I'm not saying this is the reason for these two specifically but I don't think it helps. Seems like there is no hope in keeping companies that are remote in Downtown or the City. Why would anyone pay 1% for all of their earnings/wages + rent to maintain an address? If they only get their employees together once a month, why not choose the most centrally located office building with surface parking.

I spoke to this in another thread, but to continue my commentary, the use of the word "abandon" is just the usual click-bait bullsh*t from the STLBJ.

I don't have real data to back it up, but I strongly suspect that THE most read stories from the STLBJ (and KMOV for that matter) are about downtown St. Louis crime/business, particularly if it's bad news. As such, I don't blame the STLBJ so much. They're trying to sell ads. I do blame the folks in town who consume STLBJ news. They love stories on downtown STL's demise.

Bigger picture, know how I'd try to tell this story? "After Omnicom swallows IPG, STL's IPG agencies moving to Clayton in shared space. 400+ jobs in creative services now in a single office." but, no, no one would click on that. LOL

MRNHS · Post3:50 PM - Jan 22#73932026-01-22T15:50+00:00

While I have zero reason to suspect this, I'm wondering if there is more to this. Once its biggest tenant moves out (Anthem), the other two move out together - makes me wonder if the building is being sold (or leased) to one large tenant. It's possible they all just left on their own accord, of course, but the timing just seems odd that all three leave in short order.

Not sure who would be looking for 450k of office space and probably just wishful thinking, but I can dream dammit.

soulardx · Post4:10 PM - Jan 22#73942026-01-22T16:10+00:00

MRNHS wrote: ↑
3:50 PM - Jan 22
While I have zero reason to suspect this, I'm wondering if there is more to this. Once its biggest tenant moves out (Anthem), the other two move out together - makes me wonder if the building is being sold (or leased) to one large tenant. It's possible they all just left on their own accord, of course, but the timing just seems odd that all three leave in short order.

Not sure who would be looking for 450k of office space and probably just wishful thinking, but I can dream dammit.

the "more to it" is that neither Momentum nor Weber Shandwick asked nor were considering a move. The local leadership of both didn't choose to "abandon" downtown STL. But once Omnicom bought IPG, Omnicom killed the lease renewal and is moving them all to Clayton.

StlAlex · Post4:29 PM - Jan 22#73952026-01-22T16:29+00:00

Except Momentum moved to St. Charles, not Clayton.

And to DB's comment, a Midtown to downtown move is nice, but it does not offset a 100+ worker company moving to St. Charles and it does not resolve the fact that we have another massive vacant office building.

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soulardx · Post4:57 PM - Jan 22#73962026-01-22T16:57+00:00

StlAlex wrote: ↑
4:29 PM - Jan 22
Except Momentum moved to St. Charles, not Clayton.

And to DB's comment, a Midtown to downtown move is nice, but it does not offset a 100+ worker company moving to St. Charles and it does not resolve the fact that we have another massive vacant office building.

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that St. Charles address is in all likelihood just a warehouse for all the bigger experiential marketing sh*t that Momentum has to store. I sincerely doubt that any high number of staff will have desks there. the creative folks will likely go to Clayton. No matter, there are *enormous* unknowns at the former local IPG agencies after the merger. Who effing knows. Earlier this month, on a Monday, National Honors Society was told to vacate 555 Washington by that next Wed. Weird times.

To your other point, I agree. DT STL has more and more office challenges. As I've said before and believe more and more, DT STL should move past trying to be the region's CBD. Metro is too small and fragmented to have a CBD period. So, let Clayton chase that sh*t while DT STL focus more on entertainment and residential. Covid basically ended downtowns as job centers for almost every city save NY.

StlAlex · Post7:46 PM - Jan 22#73972026-01-22T19:46+00:00

soulardx wrote:
StlAlex wrote: ↑
4:29 PM - Jan 22
Except Momentum moved to St. Charles, not Clayton.

And to DB's comment, a Midtown to downtown move is nice, but it does not offset a 100+ worker company moving to St. Charles and it does not resolve the fact that we have another massive vacant office building.

Sent from my SM-G990U2 using Tapatalk
that St. Charles address is in all likelihood just a warehouse for all the bigger experiential marketing sh*t that Momentum has to store. I sincerely doubt that any high number of staff will have desks there. the creative folks will likely go to Clayton. No matter, there are *enormous* unknowns at the former local IPG agencies after the merger. Who effing knows. Earlier this month, on a Monday, National Honors Society was told to vacate 555 Washington by that next Wed. Weird times.

To your other point, I agree. DT STL has more and more office challenges. As I've said before and believe more and more, DT STL should move past trying to be the region's CBD. Metro is too small and fragmented to have a CBD period. So, let Clayton chase that sh*t while DT STL focus more on entertainment and residential. Covid basically ended downtowns as job centers for almost every city save NY.

Maybe you're right, I just assume that the BJ would have said that.

Reality for downtown and the city in general is that 45-50,000 people work downtown and the city relies on property tax revenue from office buildings while businesses rely on sales to office workers. There is no easy way for STL to wane itself off the CBD and there isn't 40,000 people looking to move downtown to offset losing office.

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soulardx · Post8:15 PM - Jan 22#73982026-01-22T20:15+00:00

StlAlex wrote: ↑
7:46 PM - Jan 22
soulardx wrote:
StlAlex wrote: ↑
4:29 PM - Jan 22
Except Momentum moved to St. Charles, not Clayton.

And to DB's comment, a Midtown to downtown move is nice, but it does not offset a 100+ worker company moving to St. Charles and it does not resolve the fact that we have another massive vacant office building.

Sent from my SM-G990U2 using Tapatalk
that St. Charles address is in all likelihood just a warehouse for all the bigger experiential marketing sh*t that Momentum has to store. I sincerely doubt that any high number of staff will have desks there. the creative folks will likely go to Clayton. No matter, there are *enormous* unknowns at the former local IPG agencies after the merger. Who effing knows. Earlier this month, on a Monday, National Honors Society was told to vacate 555 Washington by that next Wed. Weird times.

To your other point, I agree. DT STL has more and more office challenges. As I've said before and believe more and more, DT STL should move past trying to be the region's CBD. Metro is too small and fragmented to have a CBD period. So, let Clayton chase that sh*t while DT STL focus more on entertainment and residential. Covid basically ended downtowns as job centers for almost every city save NY.
Maybe you're right, I just assume that the BJ would have said that.

Reality for downtown and the city in general is that 45-50,000 people work downtown and the city relies on property tax revenue from office buildings while businesses rely on sales to office workers. There is no easy way for STL to wane itself off the CBD and there isn't 40,000 people looking to move downtown to offset losing office.

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I'm not trying to be antagonistic but the STLBJ story also says this: "...Momentum and Weber Shandwick did not respond to requests for comment..."
Again, not talking sh*t, but the STLBJ reporter who filed the story likely has little idea what Momentum actually does (experiential marketing) . So, the reporter doesn't understand that the the St. Charles location is likely just a shipping/storage address. not an office address. OMC is still trying to figure out what to do with all the IPG folks but the (very strong) conventional wisdom is that any city with IPG agencies will now share a *single* office space. That's already happening here and other cities.

keepstlbrick · Post8:17 PM - Jan 22#73992026-01-22T20:17+00:00

Also leaves a massive empty parking garage on 18th across from an oh yea, another empty parking garage taking up the entire block between 18th and 17th.

I’m sure we need to build more parking though if a tenant comes in to occupy 20% of the building!

STLcommenter · Post8:25 PM - Jan 22#74002026-01-22T20:25+00:00

Would be completely fine with this building getting torn down and replaced with a soccer oriented development. Whether that be bars/restaurants, a hotel, apartments, etc.

This area is begging to feed off of the soccer stadium. While we’re at it, the City View commie towers can go too. Chestnut St would be a fantastic little entertainment district. It would be an easy walkable destination for Blues fans, CITY fans, and concert goers. It also has a great view of the Arch and would encourage people to explore the Gateway Mall.

The State of Downtown

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