urbanSTL

We're good at explaining to ourselves and others how a merger between the City and County can never happen.  The Koreas will merge first, we seem to argue.  Jarrad proposed a way it COULD happen.  Tiny steps.  Maybe we just hand all power to MSD.  They made it happen.  Anybody have brainstorms on ways this could actually happen?  Where is our Alexander Hamilton Federalist paper arguments for merger?  Or Oklahoma City former Mayor Ron Norick, often referred to as the "father of MAPS," Norick proposed the first temporary penny sales tax in 1993 to revitalize the city and improve its quality of life after Oklahoma City lost a major business contract to Indianapolis.

We have an incre.dibly powerful tool via the Board of Freeholders. We can do whatever we want. The hard part is convincing people to want something different than the status quo.

I personally think the "conservative"/incremental approach of the City of St. Louis rejoining St. Louis County should be step one. This isn't exactly an "easy" push but it does several things without pushing the envelope too far, too soon: 1) it promotes a sense of regionalism and reduces the notion of city/county, urban/suburban divide; 2) it helps the County mask any population decline/stagnancy by adding 275,000 new residents; 3) it would open the door to piecemeal annexations to City limits (say, of the City and bordering municipalities like Maplewood); or it could be the first step in a true merger of City+County down the road.

Currently a big complication is the 1% earnings tax/payroll tax. I believe it could be kept intact as the City of St. Louis limits/extent would be unchanged on day one, but it certainly would complicate any proposed annexations/mergers.

gary kreie wrote: ↑

1:41 PM - Jan 20

Too extreme?  By the way, one anagram of SAINTLOUIS is "I IS NO TULSA".  I could put that at the bottom.  Again, when we say die, it's not a threat.  It is a prediction.  But if we choose, we can turn this around and re-claim our rightful place as the 2nd city of the Midwest after Chicago.

What if we voted on a 1 cent expiring 5-year sales tax in the city and county, as Oklahoma City did.  And define exactly what it would be used for, such as a $3B airport terminal instead of another cheap one, among other things.  Something we would be proud of.  Something bold.

As someone who grew up in Oklahoma City at the dawn of the MAPS era, I can say, sadly, that that probably isn't possible here. God, how I wish it could, and it's a dream I quietly have, but OKC represents half the population of its metro area and probably 75% of its metro area's tax dollars. Also, a large percentage of the metro's movers and shakers and business leaders still live in the city proper. And even those in the suburbs mostly live within 15 minutes of the city proper and move in and out of it daily, and feel more invested in it than people here. 

St. Louis is just a far more challenging metro area with more fiefdoms, more competing interests and more inertia to overcome.  

Amazing, the OKC gov't must be staffed by superhumans.

I'm sure this forum doesn't want to get sidetracked into an OKC discussion. I shared a series of thoughts on a specific OKC thread in "The Nation" section if anyone is interested. I will write only this with respect to that map. About half of that geography is undeveloped due to the obscene annexation spree of the 1960s. So land wise it's not quite as superhuman as it looks. Population-wise though OKC is pretty robust, closing in on 800K in the city proper I think. They have about half the aldermen that STL has. But they have a different form of government altogether with a city manager and I'm no expert but I don't think their aldermen (they are called city councilpeople) get into the weeds nearly as far as it happens in STL. I read about aldermen in STL weighing in on topics like gas stations and renovations of small buildings in their wards and that kind of thing doesn't happen in OKC. 

Yes, they have 8 councilmembers and a mayor. When I made that overlay OKC pop was like 660k, the 2024 est was 712k. The area within 270 on the MO side is about 950k.

I speak with a lot of people, City, County, you name it. MOST agree that the best way to get the ball rolling is for STL City to enter the County as a muni, right or wrong. I feel like we have to take a major baby-step.

Once that is done, we can start slowly consolidating resources. Nobody, even people who do not support the City joining the County think our current model is sustainable. Many have said clean up City government, then we'll talk. Others b-tch about crime & the usual BS. I have been hoping that as the older more entrenched folks are either too old to care or no longer with us, we'd see the younger generations be more open to a merger.  My observation is that the negative perceptions of the City have only gotten worse since Covid & the bad press Downtown & the City has gotten worse in recent years. Go down the list; KMOV, KSDK, Peabody, the bad press just keeps rolling. These same people when I talk about the Millennium project, respond with "who the hell is going move into that building" It is a constant negative narrative. I remember when KC was jealous of our deep STL pride 15 or so years ago. Now they have all the momentum. We've lost our way as a region. The Gen-x'ers moved to the City, fought to turn things around. I feel like the younger generations prefer the burbs. I could be wrong, but seems that way. I am hoping the trend flips soon. It is going to take some real pioneers. I know we have a few, but we need a Dan Gilbert. That is what sets Detroit apart. 

I always say we are our own worst enemies. In fact, I was arguing about City safety with some people at work today. They were implying a casual stroll Downtown would lead to their inevitable murder. These attitudes are widespread in our region right now & many do not hesitate to say this stuff to out of towners. As you can tell, this frustrates me to no end, how the narratives continue to push us deeper into a hole. 

stlokc wrote: ↑

5:09 PM - Jan 20

I'm sure this forum doesn't want to get sidetracked into an OKC discussion. I shared a series of thoughts on a specific OKC thread in "The Nation" section if anyone is interested. I will write only this with respect to that map. About half of that geography is undeveloped due to the obscene annexation spree of the 1960s. So land wise it's not quite as superhuman as it looks. Population-wise though OKC is pretty robust, closing in on 800K in the city proper I think. They have about half the aldermen that STL has. But they have a different form of government altogether with a city manager and I'm no expert but I don't think their aldermen (they are called city councilpeople) get into the weeds nearly as far as it happens in STL. I read about aldermen in STL weighing in on topics like gas stations and renovations of small buildings in their wards and that kind of thing doesn't happen in OKC. 

This has to be one of the biggest impediments to growth in the region. Whether it's the city or surrounding counties, why are local alderman and politicians so directly involved in project development. It has to be a total turnoff to developers and business owners. It makes very development proposal a major NIMBY situation. Most cities now just have a master plan, zoning, and incentives in place. If the developer meets the local standard than the project is approved. Only time it would come up for debate is if a developer is asking for a variance. I'd imagine our archaic development model in local government has no doubt cost us billions of dollars in development and potentially countless jobs and residents over the years. One thing that makes the sunbelt regions so attractive for developers outside the weather and greenfields is the hands off approach to development. These places actually let developers build. We've seen dozens of projects get denied in the CWE alone, how much tax revenue has that likely costs the city?

There is concerted effort to promote cities=bad. It's been around for centuries, Thomas Jefferson quote here, got very political when cities won the population race and Congress refused to reapportion districts after the 2020 census, then turned of immigration, then urban renewal, highways, suburban subsidies, crime wave due to draining the wealth and jobs from cities to build the suburbs, lead poisoning, drug trade, etc, Crime has dropped massively since the peak in the early 1990s, but it's never low enough. Many have been so brain-washed they call for and applaud the invasion of cities a la Minneapolis.

"Many have said clean up City government, then we'll talk."
This leads to infinite goal post moving. How do we break this thinking?

Former Frontenac Mayor Kate Hatfield criticizes St. Louis city-county merger ideas as a counter to the Jarrad Holst.  St. Louis Business Journal.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1GAqdGxnUZ/

I assume for their new show? STLPR Meet Me

In addition Stl On the Air is goin to talk about it rn.

So why are we governed by people long dead from 150 years ago? If we were a clean sheet metro, how would we want it organized. I’d like hear what clean sheet changes we would do on these topics.
Airport
East Side
Downtown
Regional governance beyond MSD, GRG, Port authority


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Personally, I'd like to see one St. Louis as soon as possible. A new entity composed of St. Louis City and County, 1.3 million people within the current 570 sq mi of land area. A metro government similar to London, Toronto, Jacksonville, Nashville, Indianapolis, and Louisville. I think MO State Rep. Mackey's Proposed Bill for a Metropolitan City https://archive.house.mo.gov/Bill.aspx? ... 025&code=R, is a good start. I would like to see schools and fire districts consolidated into the Metro City as well. I do think the term "city/county merger" needs to be phased out as it is tired and toxic to many people. Maybe any new organization of St. Louis City/County could be phrased as a United St. Louis City and County, a Unified St. Louis City and County, New St. Louis City and County, New St. Louis. Anything that doesn't imply the old adage of past failed merger efforts, winners and losers, or marrying down. Just some Saturday thoughts that come to mind. 

"Unified" sounds good to me.

gary kreie wrote:So why are we governed by people long dead from 150 years ago? If we were a clean sheet metro, how would we want it organized. I’d like hear what clean sheet changes we would do on these topics.
Airport
East Side
Downtown
Regional governance beyond MSD, GRG, Port authority


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If I was dictator of St. Louis, these are the changes I would make for the above topics:

Airport: Shift Lambert to a Bi-State Regional Airport Authority

East Side: Merge Metro East municipalities like East STL, Fairmont Heights, Washington Park into a single city named Cahokia and build off of the mounds ancient history. I would remove the segment of I-55 around the mounds and reroute thru I-64 and 255, and create a massive connected park including the mounds and horseshoe lake. It could be a great recreational hub, and the main destination for Native American history.

Downtown: Incentivize office-to-residential conversions. Reconfigure the highways to better connect Downtown with the river, the arch, and soulard. Pour millions into streetscape infrastructure and upkeep making it feel like a modern and clean downtown. Strong policing, make it the safest downtown in America. Work on improve connections to adjacent neighborhoods, and also redevelop neighborhoods to the north like Carr Square, Columbus Square.

Regional Governance: Replace the City/County divide with a borough system that unifies municipal services, schools, etc to end wasteful inter-municipal competition. There will have to be a universal system of school vouchers for this to have any chance of happening.

How about realistic things that could conceivably happen without first replacing half the voting population and two-thirds of the Missouri General Assembly?

• City reenters the county as its largest municipality, current city/county offices dissolved and their duties reassigned to the appropriate muni or county bureau. 
• All current StlCo munis with fewer than 5k population are dissolved, now "unincorporated." 
• Redrawing of county council districts based on geographic population distribution, each seat containing pieces of incorporated and muni territory.
• 10-year moratorium on tax-subsidized, inter-muni migration, i.e., Chesterfield can't poach businesses from DT w/ tax schemes.  
• Airport becomes a county asset, profits accrue to a county council district honey pot, similar to the ward capitol dollars in the City.
• School districts remain untouched.

All complete fantasy, except the last one. But I also enjoy fantasizing about what I'd do if won the lottery. You can't win if you don't play.

What airport profits?
stl County is already a big winner from the airport through sales taxes.

SB in BH wrote: ↑

8:06 PM - Feb 09

How about realistic things that could conceivably happen without first replacing half the voting population and two-thirds of the Missouri General Assembly?

• City reenters the county as its largest municipality, current city/county offices dissolved and their duties reassigned to the appropriate muni or county bureau. 
• All current StlCo munis with fewer than 5k population are dissolved, now "unincorporated." 
• Redrawing of county council districts based on geographic population distribution, each seat containing pieces of incorporated and muni territory.
• 10-year moratorium on tax-subsidized, inter-muni migration, i.e., Chesterfield can't poach businesses from DT w/ tax schemes.  
• Airport becomes a county asset, profits accrue to a county council district honey pot, similar to the ward capitol dollars in the City.
• School districts remain untouched.

All complete fantasy, except the last one. But I also enjoy fantasizing about what I'd do if won the lottery. You can't win if you don't play.

I’d alter 2 things

Under 5k don’t go to unincorporated. They have to be absorbed by a city that is already above 5k.

The airport puts most its profits back into the airport (debt payoff or back to the airlines) so there really aren’t any “profits”. There is the old loophole where the city can take a little out but it should be closed anyway.

Edit: I’d change your first one also. As long as the city is still a city, even if it enters the county, it should have city offices.