^Agreed - we need to start inching our way toward it in any way possible, imho.
- 3,757
^^Agree....& ^Agree As I've said in before, City reentry into STL County is the ONLY resolution in the near term. Then we can further the discussion once that is done.
John Hancock (Hancock & Kelly) said he supports the rejuvenation of the merger talks, most notably City reentry. (So does Kelly) That tells me that Jeff City could be coming around to the idea. I think we've seen the region fall too far, too fast. Between the City & the County, it is clear that we can do better with our regional governing. Page can't even cooperate & get along with the County Counsel, so how am I supposed to believe there is ample cooperation between the City & County (as they claim) that would make City reentry unnecessary?!
On the City side, there has been tons of corruption & Cronyism. Between alderman & PBOA going to jail, to money being handed out in unscrupulous ways by the SLDC, it's time to move in another direction. There is a reason no major City (except Baltimore) does things this way.
John Hancock (Hancock & Kelly) said he supports the rejuvenation of the merger talks, most notably City reentry. (So does Kelly) That tells me that Jeff City could be coming around to the idea. I think we've seen the region fall too far, too fast. Between the City & the County, it is clear that we can do better with our regional governing. Page can't even cooperate & get along with the County Counsel, so how am I supposed to believe there is ample cooperation between the City & County (as they claim) that would make City reentry unnecessary?!
On the City side, there has been tons of corruption & Cronyism. Between alderman & PBOA going to jail, to money being handed out in unscrupulous ways by the SLDC, it's time to move in another direction. There is a reason no major City (except Baltimore) does things this way.
- 1,641
Yes. It's time to stop the nonsense and shenanigans. The party is over. I don't care much about the details on how it's done, I don't care that if all of sudden St. Louis says 2.3M population on websites.
It's time to stop the duplicitous gravy train. It's just over, it's done. It's not sustainable and it hasn't been for a few decades. History just repeats itself. Cities and civilizations build up with hard work and effort and then they get soft and collapse. That's just how it is. Avoid this immediately.
It's like Vivek says about DOGE, paraphrasing, we aren't doing this to be cruel.
No more Paris on the Potomac.
It's time to stop the duplicitous gravy train. It's just over, it's done. It's not sustainable and it hasn't been for a few decades. History just repeats itself. Cities and civilizations build up with hard work and effort and then they get soft and collapse. That's just how it is. Avoid this immediately.
It's like Vivek says about DOGE, paraphrasing, we aren't doing this to be cruel.
No more Paris on the Potomac.
- 594
I agree with everyone above it’s time for efficiency not deficiency simply can’t go on as two separate entities anymore. St.Louis should be St.Louis not county & city when we’re working together as one the entire region wins.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- 913
Yes, this isn’t Republican or Democrat. We have so many wonderful things to celebrate and be proud of as a region, not just the city, not just county - we have history, architecture, powerful economy, cultural value that should make us one of the premier places to live in North America. We need more efficiency and a more unified vision. I would vote for and support any proposal that gets us a step closer to that
- 1,290
Not sure MOs' "Republicans" are all that Republican. They seem to be weirdly anti-business and interested far more in the ridiculous culture-wars aspects of politics, purporting to support small government while making themselves omnipresent in the average Missourian's life for no reason.gone corporate wrote: ↑Dec 16, 2024Tell the outstate GOP that STL unification would help end bureaucracy. That's how you sell them on this. Then go into how it would further business growth and rebuild the central business district of the state's largest metro area. They'd absolutely love that.
I'm 100% for consolidation, and also 100% against rural residents of this state deciding how St. Louis City and St. Louis County govern themselves.
They would not like it if we told them how to draw their boundaries or how to organize their local governments.
They would not like it if we told them how to draw their boundaries or how to organize their local governments.
Something tells me Rex Sinquefield or some other billionaire is behind this. Better Together "died", but obviously there are power brokers who still want this done. The chance of local politicians doing any sort of consolidation is next to nothing. If local leaders were smart they would work towards consolidation on their own terms, whatever the looks like. Since they are not, I predict at some point in time the state will indeed force some sort of unigov to "cut government waste". I think all this talk about the state taking back the St. Louis police department is really just a precursor to more state control.
- 1,868
Tell them it will put the city under county oversight.Trololzilla wrote: ↑Dec 17, 2024Not sure MOs' "Republicans" are all that Republican. They seem to be weirdly anti-business and interested far more in the ridiculous culture-wars aspects of politics, purporting to support small government while making themselves omnipresent in the average Missourian's life for no reason.gone corporate wrote: ↑Dec 16, 2024Tell the outstate GOP that STL unification would help end bureaucracy. That's how you sell them on this. Then go into how it would further business growth and rebuild the central business district of the state's largest metro area. They'd absolutely love that.
MO is definitely dominated by bible thumpers but there's also plenty of libertarian-type thinking as well, which is a flavor of pro-business.
- 9,527
I think people often confuse city being part of the county as another municipality and a merger of city and county governments to form a uni gov.
If the city was to re enter the county as a muni, I don’t see too many benefits or negatives either way. I suppose in that scenario, SLMPD can be disbanded and officers join the county PD and city contracts with the county for policing like how wildwood or Jennings and green park do now
Now if city and county governments were to merge, all those other self governed municipalities like Clayton, ladue etc would be business as usual. The merged unigov would administer the current unincorporated STL county and STL city. Although with any effort to do that I’d push for consolidation of county municipalities and get rid of all that have under 10,000 people by merging them with neighboring municipalities.
If the city was to re enter the county as a muni, I don’t see too many benefits or negatives either way. I suppose in that scenario, SLMPD can be disbanded and officers join the county PD and city contracts with the county for policing like how wildwood or Jennings and green park do now
Now if city and county governments were to merge, all those other self governed municipalities like Clayton, ladue etc would be business as usual. The merged unigov would administer the current unincorporated STL county and STL city. Although with any effort to do that I’d push for consolidation of county municipalities and get rid of all that have under 10,000 people by merging them with neighboring municipalities.
- 913
Biggest benefits to the former would be the access to county taxes that could maintain roads, police depts, etc. and annexation. StL City could annex munis into its limits.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 18, 2024I think people often confuse city being part of the county as another municipality and a merger of city and county governments to form a uni gov.
If the city was to re enter the county as a muni, I don’t see too many benefits or negatives either way. I suppose in that scenario, SLMPD can be disbanded and officers join the county PD and city contracts with the county for policing like how wildwood or Jennings and green park do now
Now if city and county governments were to merge, all those other self governed municipalities like Clayton, ladue etc would be business as usual. The merged unigov would administer the current unincorporated STL county and STL city. Although with any effort to do that I’d push for consolidation of county municipalities and get rid of all that have under 10,000 people by merging them with neighboring municipalities.
With the latter, yes, I think it would require some form of tailored state law that prevents a bunch of independent munis from the unified government. There would still be some, just as Jeffersontown and Shively are still independent from Louisville-Jefferson Co. govt but we would need the north county munis merged. I think many munis that may be above that qualification would choose to merge with the unified govt in todays age anyways (Ferguson, Lemay, Jennings, etc).
Annexation and reducing service overlap, but county is having trouble funding its own needs right now, I don't think there'd be a financial benefit to the city in that regarddelmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Dec 18, 2024Biggest benefits to the former would be the access to county taxes that could maintain roads, police depts, etc. and annexation. StL City could annex munis into its limits.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 18, 2024I think people often confuse city being part of the county as another municipality and a merger of city and county governments to form a uni gov.
If the city was to re enter the county as a muni, I don’t see too many benefits or negatives either way. I suppose in that scenario, SLMPD can be disbanded and officers join the county PD and city contracts with the county for policing like how wildwood or Jennings and green park do now
Now if city and county governments were to merge, all those other self governed municipalities like Clayton, ladue etc would be business as usual. The merged unigov would administer the current unincorporated STL county and STL city. Although with any effort to do that I’d push for consolidation of county municipalities and get rid of all that have under 10,000 people by merging them with neighboring municipalities.
With the latter, yes, I think it would require some form of tailored state law that prevents a bunch of independent munis from the unified government. There would still be some, just as Jeffersontown and Shively are still independent from Louisville-Jefferson Co. govt but we would need the north county munis merged. I think many munis that may be above that qualification would choose to merge with the unified govt in todays age anyways (Ferguson, Lemay, Jennings, etc).
- 9,527
There isn’t
From my linkedin post yesterday
As the City of St. Louis continues to attract a younger, more educated population and sees growth in households earning $100,000 or more, its been to outperforming St. Louis County financially. This disparity highlights a larger issue for regional growth. While suburban areas across America have experienced significant population increases over the last 4 decades, St. Louis County’s population has remained nearly stagnant since 1980. From 2020 to 2023, the county added just 650 new apartments, compared to 4,100 in the City. Since 2021 the City has run over $200,000,000 in surpluses and St.Louis County continues to run deficits and resorts to cuts in jobs and services. Half of the City’s surplus has gone into the rainy day fund, which now exceeds best practice amount and the other half into the capital improvements plan that’s been supplemented with an extra $100,000,000 since 2021 thanks to the surpluses. These funds have been earmarked for new bridge and roadway work, fire trucks and ambulances, police vehicles, park improvements, city facility improvements etc.
The question is no longer why St. Louis County would want to merge with the City, but rather why the City would consider merging with the county. The City is in a much stronger financial position now and moving forward. Additionally, it holds two of the region’s most valuable assets: Lambert International Airport and its own water division, which boasts significant excess capacity and even sells water to other cities in the region.
This will be an increasingly relevant topic for discussion as we move through the rest of the decade.
From my linkedin post yesterday
As the City of St. Louis continues to attract a younger, more educated population and sees growth in households earning $100,000 or more, its been to outperforming St. Louis County financially. This disparity highlights a larger issue for regional growth. While suburban areas across America have experienced significant population increases over the last 4 decades, St. Louis County’s population has remained nearly stagnant since 1980. From 2020 to 2023, the county added just 650 new apartments, compared to 4,100 in the City. Since 2021 the City has run over $200,000,000 in surpluses and St.Louis County continues to run deficits and resorts to cuts in jobs and services. Half of the City’s surplus has gone into the rainy day fund, which now exceeds best practice amount and the other half into the capital improvements plan that’s been supplemented with an extra $100,000,000 since 2021 thanks to the surpluses. These funds have been earmarked for new bridge and roadway work, fire trucks and ambulances, police vehicles, park improvements, city facility improvements etc.
The question is no longer why St. Louis County would want to merge with the City, but rather why the City would consider merging with the county. The City is in a much stronger financial position now and moving forward. Additionally, it holds two of the region’s most valuable assets: Lambert International Airport and its own water division, which boasts significant excess capacity and even sells water to other cities in the region.
This will be an increasingly relevant topic for discussion as we move through the rest of the decade.
- 3,757
^ I think that is the HUGE issue here. The fact that this arbitrary line divides the region and people are OK with that. It has always been an US against THEM mentality, hence the reason we are one of, if not the slowest growth major metro in the US. Like I said before, there is a reason other cities do not operate in this manner. We must overcome the City vs. County mentality, bite the bullet and enter the City into the County. That is the first step needed to move this region forward. Then start looking to merge departments, privatize departments and move away from ancient governance model we live under.
This issue is not being pushed or discussed to my knowledge by Jones or Page. I see nothing happening with either in office.
I would also ask... Where would the City of St. Louis be financially speaking, without once in a lifetime windfalls from Covid, Rams, infrastructure & other Federal dollars? If you can't bring in new people/population/taxbase, etc. we will not attract new business and growth will remain stagnant or decreasing as it has for decades.
This issue is not being pushed or discussed to my knowledge by Jones or Page. I see nothing happening with either in office.
I would also ask... Where would the City of St. Louis be financially speaking, without once in a lifetime windfalls from Covid, Rams, infrastructure & other Federal dollars? If you can't bring in new people/population/taxbase, etc. we will not attract new business and growth will remain stagnant or decreasing as it has for decades.
- 1,793
Doesn’t the City’s police academy basically act as the regional police academy too?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 18, 2024There isn’t
From my linkedin post yesterday
As the City of St. Louis continues to attract a younger, more educated population and sees growth in households earning $100,000 or more, its been to outperforming St. Louis County financially. This disparity highlights a larger issue for regional growth. While suburban areas across America have experienced significant population increases over the last 4 decades, St. Louis County’s population has remained nearly stagnant since 1980. From 2020 to 2023, the county added just 650 new apartments, compared to 4,100 in the City. Since 2021 the City has run over $200,000,000 in surpluses and St.Louis County continues to run deficits and resorts to cuts in jobs and services. Half of the City’s surplus has gone into the rainy day fund, which now exceeds best practice amount and the other half into the capital improvements plan that’s been supplemented with an extra $100,000,000 since 2021 thanks to the surpluses. These funds have been earmarked for new bridge and roadway work, fire trucks and ambulances, police vehicles, park improvements, city facility improvements etc.
The question is no longer why St. Louis County would want to merge with the City, but rather why the City would consider merging with the county. The City is in a much stronger financial position now and moving forward. Additionally, it holds two of the region’s most valuable assets: Lambert International Airport and its own water division, which boasts significant excess capacity and even sells water to other cities in the region.
This will be an increasingly relevant topic for discussion as we move through the rest of the decade.
- 2,052
Someone should run for Mayor just on a framework to negotiate reuniting with the county.
So.. the county could benefit from the surplus of city funds, and the city benefits from consolidation of services (and potentially elimination and/or upgrades on older antiquated processes) and the ability to grow population via annexation - as many of its peers have done - for the first time in 150 years? Sounds like a win-win. St. Louis city should be the county's biggest asset, not it's primary competition.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 18, 2024There isn’t
From my linkedin post yesterday
As the City of St. Louis continues to attract a younger, more educated population and sees growth in households earning $100,000 or more, its been to outperforming St. Louis County financially. This disparity highlights a larger issue for regional growth. While suburban areas across America have experienced significant population increases over the last 4 decades, St. Louis County’s population has remained nearly stagnant since 1980. From 2020 to 2023, the county added just 650 new apartments, compared to 4,100 in the City. Since 2021 the City has run over $200,000,000 in surpluses and St.Louis County continues to run deficits and resorts to cuts in jobs and services. Half of the City’s surplus has gone into the rainy day fund, which now exceeds best practice amount and the other half into the capital improvements plan that’s been supplemented with an extra $100,000,000 since 2021 thanks to the surpluses. These funds have been earmarked for new bridge and roadway work, fire trucks and ambulances, police vehicles, park improvements, city facility improvements etc.
The question is no longer why St. Louis County would want to merge with the City, but rather why the City would consider merging with the county. The City is in a much stronger financial position now and moving forward. Additionally, it holds two of the region’s most valuable assets: Lambert International Airport and its own water division, which boasts significant excess capacity and even sells water to other cities in the region.
This will be an increasingly relevant topic for discussion as we move through the rest of the decade.
-RBB
DB is absolutely correct though. All a unigov would do is make STL look more like Indianapolis, Louisville, and Jacksonville in the long run. Suburban centric politicians running everything and the county using the city's excess tax revenue to fund more road work.
Going to school in Indianapolis has made me completely against a unigov type merger at all. Indy is one of the most miserable cities I've ever been to. Can't fund road maintenance, sidewalks and streetlights are a second or third thought, 75% of the traffic lights are on wires, railroad crossings look straight out of a horror movie, public transit is awful, etc etc. Just a miserable city all around and most of their issues can be drawn back to the fact the city and county are merged.
Not saying there's no benefits. But the downsides are straight up horrible and I'd rather seek out ways to independently thrive instead of try and make a deal with the devil.
Going to school in Indianapolis has made me completely against a unigov type merger at all. Indy is one of the most miserable cities I've ever been to. Can't fund road maintenance, sidewalks and streetlights are a second or third thought, 75% of the traffic lights are on wires, railroad crossings look straight out of a horror movie, public transit is awful, etc etc. Just a miserable city all around and most of their issues can be drawn back to the fact the city and county are merged.
Not saying there's no benefits. But the downsides are straight up horrible and I'd rather seek out ways to independently thrive instead of try and make a deal with the devil.
- 913
While the financial outlook of the city looks okay now, we still need more population, taxes - to do that we must attract new business and residents from outside the region. Right now, the county and city compete with each other and honestly, are both showing consequences of that competition.
E-W is not enough. We need the county and city in particular to be working together. The only way for that to happen is merger of govt or incorporation of city into the county.
There are arguments for either method but one needs to happen - we cannot go on like we are. We have 80 years of evidence that it just does not work.
Most specifically, we need the city and inner ring to be unified under a vision. We won’t grow as a region to the capacity we need too until those are thriving and working together. I used to be an incorporation + annex advocate but have slowing moved towards merger because the balkanization of the county has made them so inefficient that they badly need such consolidation. Incorporation would not resolve their issues and I am unsure how easily the city would be able to annex the surrounding munis without state intervention.
E-W is not enough. We need the county and city in particular to be working together. The only way for that to happen is merger of govt or incorporation of city into the county.
There are arguments for either method but one needs to happen - we cannot go on like we are. We have 80 years of evidence that it just does not work.
Most specifically, we need the city and inner ring to be unified under a vision. We won’t grow as a region to the capacity we need too until those are thriving and working together. I used to be an incorporation + annex advocate but have slowing moved towards merger because the balkanization of the county has made them so inefficient that they badly need such consolidation. Incorporation would not resolve their issues and I am unsure how easily the city would be able to annex the surrounding munis without state intervention.
- 2,052
Also something else I'd add... is a STL City + STL County competing against the East Metro, St. Charles/Peters for jobs/opportunities is a much easier fight than our current situation... much better leverage to keep people within the county lines and prevent more sprawl. Reduce a bit of sprawl and population trends might look a lot better.
- 1,607
Someone make me a map already of what a City-unincorporated county combo looks like, cause it sounds potentially beastly.
- 1,607
The ArcGIS doesn't confirm that swath along 44, but otherwise a really interesting idea, especially with the southern and northern broad swaths actually adjacent or near adjacent.
- 398
I am not saying this is good OR bad. The one thing I see is the city losing county courthouse status and that moving to Clayton. Perhaps it strengthens them more. I do believe we are are better together. I am for compromise that is mutually beneficial.
- 9,527
County government would be in downtown STL under any scenario, biggest reason is the county is broke and it needs $90m in renovation to its existing gov building that are required by law or build a new one