Other cities have successfully merged/consolidated multiple jurisdictions. I'm sure they faced the same types of opposition we have. We need to study those other efforts, and see how they got it done.
In the meantime, I think gradually merging services such as fire fighters, police, schools, etc. would be an achievable goal, and lead the way to an ultimate reunification.
As an outsider, with family and friends back home in the STL burbs, the feedback I get is they love where they live & don't want to see things change for the worse because of a merger. They understand negative perceptions would be vastly improved with a merger, but they fear something negative would come from this merger, to their 'safe-havens' in the burbs (afraid their taxes would go elsewhere and end up as wasteful spending while less tax dollars would be spent in their back yards). I don't fully agree, but I also don't blame them as the region has made huge blunders in the past. I sense a what's in it for us attitude.
I recall a fear around light rail expansion to the burbs 15 years ago. There was fear that criminals would ride the rails to rob their homes and return with their tv's all courtesy of metrolink! I think there are similar feelings to a city/county merger, in the burbs, and these asinine perceptions need to be addressed ahead of time.
A great thing here in the Twin Cities is their policy regarding schools. As long as you apply, and are accepted, you can go to any district in the area, but you'll have to supply your own transport. This type of incentive could be built into a city/county merger. Marijuana dispensaries could be awarded to certain regions (2/3rd's of all recreational dispensaries are in the Northern Borough as an example). Allow tax dollars and autonomy of each region to stay local and occur, but above all, it seems fear is the biggest obstacle to overcome. There are some great urban minds here, seems appealing to each regions fears/wants would be the best way to bring the city/county closer together.
The fragmentation from where I sit looks like gridlock. Someone has to look at those who aren't on board and get them to buy in. 4 boroughs, allows the city's problems to remain in the city while west counties problems stay out west. Seems like that's what is wanted most from the no voters. Maybe this is obvious, maybe I'm wrong, but it sure looks like all the efforts to merge are geared towards those who'd already vote yes.
^Yeah. Rather than dreaming up grand plans, a better place to start is probably a good understanding of where disincorporation and mergers actually have taken place locally, what factors were involved, and how to scale that up. I love to think big too but this is an extremely tough nut to crack.
The recent examples I can think of are:
-St. George, which voted to disincorporate after the scandal involving their police dept
-Vinita Terrace which merged into Vinita Park, I don't know much about how that happened
-Mackenzie, which voted to disincorporate, ditto
Seems to me that getting rid of corruption and the promise of better public services with the County or as a larger city motivated these. My hunch is that "efficiency" and "regional economic development" are too abstract to motivate voters to give up their municipalities. Ibleedlou's example of the Twin Cities' public schools open enrollment policy is an interesting idea, one that could be worth exploring.
There's the Centreville, Alorton, Cahokia merger into Cahokia Heights on the east side. The impetus was desperation.
This brings up a problem in saying "see X and Y merged and things got better." Well when fragments hold on until exhausting all other options, it's really unlikely things get much better after a merger especially when the fragments going in are all distressed. Beyond Housing is/has paved streets for Pine Lawn. Pine Lawn merging with a neighbor isn't going to help much.
Disincorporating and having the county provide services looks better as the county has capacity, but as we know the county is having budget problems too. And we've seen gov'ts ignore certain populations and areas even though they're under the same jurisdiction.
I don't think merger saves any money. It could free up some resources that then could be allocated to services and infrastructure that have ben neglected, like that bridge between Breckenridge Hills and Woodson Terrace that neither wants to take responsibility for because neither can afford to deal with it. No matter how much merging and disincorporating happens there's still the over-arching problem of spreading out too much and rendering ourselves house poor. Still it's important to get past our fragments and see the big picture of the magnitude of the house poorness.
Hmm that's a challenging perspective. I don't disagree per se, suburbs are inherently unsustainable and most of the STL area's problems can't be solved by changing the form of local government.
Yet I do think there are destructive processes that local gov't consolidation can put a stop to. One that comes to mind is how municipalities build new shopping centers to generate sales tax revenue, often requiring the demolition of vulnerable neighborhoods like Meachum Park. Meanwhile, because of the region's stagnant population/economy, this just causes older shopping centers to close and the municipalities that house them to go bankrupt. It's a similar process with offices. If there was a regional gov't that pooled sales taxes there would be no reason to continue doing this, at the very least it would be St. Charles County vs. Merged St. Louis City/County rather than what we have now.
But it's way easier to get the CostCo done than to convince U City and Clayton to merge so that U City doesn't have to spend a ton of money on a new police HQ, etc.
Aren't Louisville and Indianapolis -- two fellow Midwestern cities about four hours away -- success stories for this?
Overall yes. I spoke to a councilman from Louisville a couple years ago (a Mr. Peden) and they have the opinion we will battle here - the merger reduced services /quality of to the "nicer" areas (one was his area). Considered it a failure. I asked if services had improved overall, business conditions, etc. Sidestep...
I've been in numerous (uneducated) discussions about city/metro area population and some of the meanings behind them. Unfortunately, without some knowledge of history and comparisons to other metros there is no uniform way to measure an area's true meaningful population other than an MSA. Many people don't know what an MSA is, and city lines that were arbitrarily drawn 200-300 years ago often have little real meaning today. One example is I had a friend who truly thought Austin was the 10th largest city/ area in the country.
Personally, I don't think of Miami as a large city, especially the downtown. Granted I lived in that area briefly. Their downtown is void and lifeless, mostly offices or high rises with very little surface activity. Miami Beach is a separate city of ~50k people. They have a rather large metro area since it covers like 50 miles going North of the jumble of smaller cities.
Furthermore, our city vs county issues are not unique. I'm in my hometown Buffalo now and the county has been sparring with the city about the response to the blizzard, but this has been going on for years. I don't recall there being the level of animosity in STL as what I've seen in the past few press conferences in Buffalo.
I disagree, The Miami area has about twice as many people as St. Louis and definitely feels like it's at least twice the size of St. Louis.
It has a smaller square mileage since it can only go inland a few miles until you reach the everglades. Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and the cities in between have next to nothing to do with Miami, and don't feel like Miami. The MSA starts about 86 miles north of downtown Miami, and I'm not sure how it all gets lumped together other than for convenience
I lived in FLL briefly and unfortunately visit that hell hole of S. Florida frequently for work.
Miami-Dade county has a population of 2.7M people, and that I would classify more as Miami, however most of that is endless (lower income) sprawl.
It has a smaller square mileage since it can only go inland a few miles until you reach the everglades. Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and the cities in between have next to nothing to do with Miami, and don't feel like Miami. The MSA starts about 86 miles north of downtown Miami, and I'm not sure how it all gets lumped together other than for convenience
I lived in FLL briefly and unfortunately visit that hell hole of S. Florida frequently for work.
Miami-Dade county has a population of 2.7M people, and that I would classify more as Miami, however most of that is endless (lower income) sprawl.
I'd agree with this. I'm totally unimpressed with the South Florida megapolis for several reasons (traffic, crime, overdevelopment, expensive, poor infrastructure and public amenities for a city it's size, etc.) but Americans love tropical weather, beaches, and pretty people, so it will always have a pull to certain demographics.
Hmm that's a challenging perspective. I don't disagree per se, suburbs are inherently unsustainable and most of the STL area's problems can't be solved by changing the form of local government.
Yet I do think there are destructive processes that local gov't consolidation can put a stop to. One that comes to mind is how municipalities build new shopping centers to generate sales tax revenue, often requiring the demolition of vulnerable neighborhoods like Meachum Park. Meanwhile, because of the region's stagnant population/economy, this just causes older shopping centers to close and the municipalities that house them to go bankrupt. It's a similar process with offices. If there was a regional gov't that pooled sales taxes there would be no reason to continue doing this, at the very least it would be St. Charles County vs. Merged St. Louis City/County rather than what we have now.
Economic and social conditions will have to get substantially worse for the unincorporated parts of StL County and at least a few of the big Munis before any kind of consolidation with the City will seem even remotely palatable for all of the legacy white flight voters living in those places. Maybe crime/policing as a standalone issue is already there and some merging of police/public safety functions could be considered "out loud" by local and regional leaders. But merging transportation/economic development/housing/etc. services, even public health services, which should seem obvious given the Pandemic and its consequences, is still outside the Overton window for County normies.
I am not up to speed on the status of the board of freeholders/consolidation discussion, so I apologize in advance. I do know that I have not heard a peep from Jones and/or Page on the topic in ages. Where does this process stand (I'm sure its DOA) and is anyone... anyone... discussing City re-entry or consolidation of services like the PD, etc...?
If not, what is it going to take for this discussion to resume? Is there any government official or public figure still pushing for discussions?
Does it need to resume? After Board reduction and recent indictments, city hall seems healthier than I’ve seen in my life. Our budget, although under attack, is far healthier than the County’s.
What city issue would be immediately solved by reentry into the county? There are plenty of failed cities in the County.
I think it should be discussed. The overlap of services would possibly save billions. The City has been losing population forever.. That will continue to eat away at the tax base. A portion of the earnings tax is in jeopardy. I’m not sure the picture is as pretty as you’ve painted. The long term outlook is questionable at best. I would guess that your take is not a popular one. By that token, the original divorce was warranted in the opposite direction back in the day. I personally believe that was the most detrimental thing that has ever happened to our region bar none.
