I know you're all aware of it and pointing it out, but it is absolutely unacceptable that the local media outlets would go to St. Charles County politicians for answers to St. Louis city's and St. Louis County's woes. They shouldn't be part of the conversation, period. Their opinions -- do -- not -- matter.
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^That was why I pointed out the glaringly large amount of time they gave him.
St. Charles executive actually sounded the most sane out of all the people interviewed. People in St. Louis really live in the twilight zone. The amount of pure ignorance is next level.
^ I thought so too.
Mark Harder sounded like a complete idiot. “Both jurisdictions are financially strapped, so let’s keep doing what we’ve been doing for 150 years.”
Funny how he’s clueless on the city’s finances too. It’s amazing how many people think it’s a money grab for the city while the city has ran surpluses for the last handful of years while the county’s finances slowly whittle away…
My own conversations with some folks lead me to believe there are more St. Louisans out there hungry for change than the rubes KMOV picks out would have you think. But it’s going to take a really good (and tough) campaign to educate the more oblivious and ignorant voters in the region.
Mark Harder sounded like a complete idiot. “Both jurisdictions are financially strapped, so let’s keep doing what we’ve been doing for 150 years.”
Funny how he’s clueless on the city’s finances too. It’s amazing how many people think it’s a money grab for the city while the city has ran surpluses for the last handful of years while the county’s finances slowly whittle away…
My own conversations with some folks lead me to believe there are more St. Louisans out there hungry for change than the rubes KMOV picks out would have you think. But it’s going to take a really good (and tough) campaign to educate the more oblivious and ignorant voters in the region.
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The Facebook responses to articles about this subject are mostly ugly.
The only reason it is back in the conversation imo is that that County is looking down being seriously broke. Not only is the county government facing rising expenses and declining revenues, but a significant chunk of the municipalities are in distressed condition with things unlikely to improve. It is a great irony that if this does happen, it will basically be a bailout of County government by the City.
But things look pretty great from my municipality propped up with cannibalistic regressive sales tax dollars from the rest of the region. Forget the rest of you guys!Ebsy wrote: ↑Dec 03, 2022The only reason it is back in the conversation imo is that that County is looking down being seriously broke. Not only is the county government facing rising expenses and declining revenues, but a significant chunk of the municipalities are in distressed condition with things unlikely to improve. It is a great irony that if this does happen, it will basically be a bailout of County government by the City.
Would love it if the City would say they’re not interested in rejoining the County until consolidation brings the number of munis under 30. Throw it in the county’s lap. I think the excessive munis is a bigger problem/impediment than the City/County split. And it’s easier to rectify.
Retail disruption may have a silver lining after all. Whatever it takes to move towards a better future. The region needs to start behaving like the economic powerhouse of 3million people that it is.
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Looks like Jefferson City is up to its old tricks with regards to having a say in St Louis City functions....
Missouri lawmakers target local control of St. Louis police, prosecutions
Missouri lawmakers target local control of St. Louis police, prosecutions
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/missouri-lawmakers-target-local-control-of-st-louis-police-prosecutions/article_1ca37fcd-b87b-530f-a6e3-220fbc54aebd.html#tracking-source=home-top-storyBills attempting to put the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department under state control come a decade after Missouri voters put the city back in charge.
Separate legislation would give a state-appointed prosecutor the power to handle most violent crime cases in the city, supplanting Circuit Attorney Kimberly M. Gardner. Republican lawmakers say the measures are intended to get a handle on violent crime in the city, which incoming House Speaker Dean Plocher, R-Des Peres, says has “destabilized our entire region.” Data compiled by the Post-Dispatch, however, shows violent crime totals actually declined between 2020 and 2021 after seeing year-over-year increases from 2018 through 2020. The homicide rate hit a record in 2020, but has retreated since then.
I mean something has to change. Not sure if that is the answer though..airforceguy1 wrote:Looks like Jefferson City is up to its old tricks with regards to having a say in St Louis City functions....
Missouri lawmakers target local control of St. Louis police, prosecutionshttps://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/missouri-lawmakers-target-local-control-of-st-louis-police-prosecutions/article_1ca37fcd-b87b-530f-a6e3-220fbc54aebd.html#tracking-source=home-top-storyBills attempting to put the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department under state control come a decade after Missouri voters put the city back in charge.
Separate legislation would give a state-appointed prosecutor the power to handle most violent crime cases in the city, supplanting Circuit Attorney Kimberly M. Gardner. Republican lawmakers say the measures are intended to get a handle on violent crime in the city, which incoming House Speaker Dean Plocher, R-Des Peres, says has “destabilized our entire region.” Data compiled by the Post-Dispatch, however, shows violent crime totals actually declined between 2020 and 2021 after seeing year-over-year increases from 2018 through 2020. The homicide rate hit a record in 2020, but has retreated since then.
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I would think it would be a lot easier to push through some kind of municipal reforms if you had the voting base of the City voting on it within the broader County.shadrach wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2022Would love it if the City would say they’re not interested in rejoining the County until consolidation brings the number of munis under 30. Throw it in the county’s lap. I think the excessive munis is a bigger problem/impediment than the City/County split. And it’s easier to rectify.
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Just curious, what are the pro-city/county organizations, booster groups, etc., out there? Are there any? Is there any on-line social media presence? If so, please let me know, thanks.
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Think about this a bit with how we (especially local media) looks at us internally vs how we look at other cities
I've been in numerous (uneducated) discussions about city/metro area population and some of the meanings behind them. Unfortunately, without some knowledge of history and comparisons to other metros there is no uniform way to measure an area's true meaningful population other than an MSA. Many people don't know what an MSA is, and city lines that were arbitrarily drawn 200-300 years ago often have little real meaning today. One example is I had a friend who truly thought Austin was the 10th largest city/ area in the country.
Personally, I don't think of Miami as a large city, especially the downtown. Granted I lived in that area briefly. Their downtown is void and lifeless, mostly offices or high rises with very little surface activity. Miami Beach is a separate city of ~50k people. They have a rather large metro area since it covers like 50 miles going North of the jumble of smaller cities.
Furthermore, our city vs county issues are not unique. I'm in my hometown Buffalo now and the county has been sparring with the city about the response to the blizzard, but this has been going on for years. I don't recall there being the level of animosity in STL as what I've seen in the past few press conferences in Buffalo.
Personally, I don't think of Miami as a large city, especially the downtown. Granted I lived in that area briefly. Their downtown is void and lifeless, mostly offices or high rises with very little surface activity. Miami Beach is a separate city of ~50k people. They have a rather large metro area since it covers like 50 miles going North of the jumble of smaller cities.
Furthermore, our city vs county issues are not unique. I'm in my hometown Buffalo now and the county has been sparring with the city about the response to the blizzard, but this has been going on for years. I don't recall there being the level of animosity in STL as what I've seen in the past few press conferences in Buffalo.
What if the county was split into three parishes/boroughs…North is everything north of Page Blvd., South is everything below Manchester Rd. leaving the rest as the third/Central borough. St. Louis City is the 4th borough and to offset the 1% Earnings Tax, Earth City becomes an extension of the City borough via the airport property connection through the West Lake area. Earth City appears to be mostly businesses, shouldn’t have much residential backlash if joined to the 4th borough. Even if EC wouldn't be enough to offset the 1% ET, arbitrary boundaries could be tinkered with to find the right mix for all 4 parishes.
Residents also would retain their 'regionalism' as part of a larger borough, while the entire metro benefits from the consolidation and shared resources while addressing some of the crippling perception issues that hamper regional growth (crime/shrinking city population).
Finally, if something such as this is voted in, offer to revisit and put it back on the ballot in 5 years if it’s not a win for the region at a certain point.
Residents also would retain their 'regionalism' as part of a larger borough, while the entire metro benefits from the consolidation and shared resources while addressing some of the crippling perception issues that hamper regional growth (crime/shrinking city population).
Finally, if something such as this is voted in, offer to revisit and put it back on the ballot in 5 years if it’s not a win for the region at a certain point.
Great ideaibleedlou wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2022What if the county was split into three parishes/boroughs…North is everything north of Page Blvd., South is everything below Manchester Rd. leaving the rest as the third/Central borough. St. Louis City is the 4th borough and to offset the 1% Earnings Tax, Earth City becomes an extension of the City borough via the airport property connection through the West Lake area. Earth City appears to be mostly businesses, shouldn’t have much residential backlash if joined to the 4th borough. Even if EC wouldn't be enough to offset the 1% ET, arbitrary boundaries could be tinkered with to find the right mix for all 4 parishes.
Residents also would retain their 'regionalism' as part of a larger borough, while the entire metro benefits from the consolidation and shared resources while addressing some of the crippling perception issues that hamper regional growth (crime/shrinking city population).
Finally, if something such as this is voted in, offer to revisit and put it back on the ballot in 5 years if it’s not a win for the region at a certain point.
A borough plan was attempted via the freeholders process in 1962 and was crushed.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... ae524.html
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... ae524.html
That was 22 boroughs, maybe too convoluted? Truth is we already have North, South, and West Counties in place, as is St. Louis City. Familiarity is already there, just tweak the boundaries to give all four 'Regions' a chance to thrive with the possibility of future growth while the tax base stays/pays within its current Region.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2022A borough plan was attempted via the freeholders process in 1962 and was crushed.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... ae524.html
Change the messaging from past efforts, regions instead of boroughs, repeal a tax right away, create incentives, just show more value to those who opposed past mergers so they can see the values to be gained while keeping things simple and not upsetting 'their' apple carts. Target those who voted down the last proposals, ask why they did vote against it and see if its simply "we don't want to pay taxes that go to waste in the city yadda yadda yadda".
There are some smart urban planners out there, get a team together, put something out there that invigorates the region while bringing it together. Utilize some Kroenke dollars with civic projects in each region, work in the future proceeds from marijuana sales for each...don't let the past dictate, get St. Louis fired up and put back together. Its a special place that's much too fragmented that needs buy in from people from every region and a sales person who buys in and can deliver a message to all. 22 boroughs...sounds a lot like the plethora of alderman (possibly another thing to rid under this new coming together?)
Most of the people who last had a chance to vote on merger are dead.
^^ How are 22 boroughs more convoluted than the independent city and 88 municipalities?
I’m sorry, but I see no realistic path forward for a borough plan that essentially cuts the county up into three separate counties. Parish governments are equivalent to county governments in this country and the only other city governed by a borough system is NYC. Where each borough is an individual county. How does that work here? If 22 boroughs was too convoluted and too much, then why did Better Together fail? That was just one large city/county…seems much simpler.
4 separate boroughs is basically a cheap better together plan. It’ll get crushed too.
I’m sorry, but I see no realistic path forward for a borough plan that essentially cuts the county up into three separate counties. Parish governments are equivalent to county governments in this country and the only other city governed by a borough system is NYC. Where each borough is an individual county. How does that work here? If 22 boroughs was too convoluted and too much, then why did Better Together fail? That was just one large city/county…seems much simpler.
4 separate boroughs is basically a cheap better together plan. It’ll get crushed too.
I'd like munis under X population to have a vote on disincorporation every five years like we have one in the city to retain the earnings tax. There could be the option to substitute a merger proposal.
The 22 borough plan is convoluted compared to a 4 borough plan/idea.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2022^^ How are 22 boroughs more convoluted than the independent city and 88 municipalities?
I’m sorry, but I see no realistic path forward for a borough plan that essentially cuts the county up into three separate counties. Parish governments are equivalent to county governments in this country and the only other city governed by a borough system is NYC. Where each borough is an individual county. How does that work here? If 22 boroughs was too convoluted and too much, then why did Better Together fail? That was just one large city/county…seems much simpler.
4 separate boroughs is basically a cheap better together plan. It’ll get crushed too.
How does a city/county merger appeal to those who oppose a merger currently? (I've not lived in STL since 2008/9 and thought the last proposal was voted down, maybe it was never voted on, better together?). Isn't a merger semantics in a way anyways as the boundaries are lines on a map, we aren't moving people physically. The point is to bring the population of the city and county together to help with the horrible perceptions of crime and what many see as a dying/stagnant city. It would also save money in consolidating resources in the areas currently in St. Louis County and help some of the harder hit areas in these regions. If not, what's the caveat for current county residents to vote for a city/county merger? isn't that answer going to differ for each region in the county? Hopefully, spitballing ideas leads to someone picking up an idea or two who can unite the region eventually. I'd say people in current North County would have different reasons for wanting to merge with the city than residents of West County might have. Keeping things in regions/boroughs would allow these areas some autonomy in regards to their tax dollars and happenings in their back yards. Wouldn't residents of Kirkwood be more inclined to help an area such as Crestwood in the same region as opposed to their taxes going to help out in Jennings? Unfortunately, I think so.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2022^^ How are 22 boroughs more convoluted than the independent city and 88 municipalities?
I’m sorry, but I see no realistic path forward for a borough plan that essentially cuts the county up into three separate counties. Parish governments are equivalent to county governments in this country and the only other city governed by a borough system is NYC. Where each borough is an individual county. How does that work here? If 22 boroughs was too convoluted and too much, then why did Better Together fail? That was just one large city/county…seems much simpler.
4 separate boroughs is basically a cheap better together plan. It’ll get crushed too.
Certainly things are much more complex than my simplified idea, but you have to recognize many in STL county are more than fine with things as they are. How do you suggest we sway them so they can see a united city/county is better for them so they vote OUI? Four boroughs is fragmented, but all four boroughs would be under the umbrella of St. Louis City.
I understand we are on page 60 in this thread but if you read through (at least from 2018) you’ll find plenty of comments I wrote in favor of some sort of re-entry/consolidation/merger. I was even in favor of better together (at one point I think I said the region needed a cold hard slap lol). I still unequivocally support some sort of reorganization through the BoF. I wrote this comment on November 28th of this year…