Dumb question: but does Clayton High School have a theater?framer wrote: ↑Mar 26, 2025You have to assume they've been in talks with developers to partner with them on developing other portions of the site. The land is simply too big and too valuable for such a small theater group to go it alone.
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They looked into grand center and downtown and couldn’t find a suitable sit
They did in 1978! Pretty nice one.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 26, 2025Dumb question: but does Clayton High School have a theater?framer wrote: ↑Mar 26, 2025You have to assume they've been in talks with developers to partner with them on developing other portions of the site. The land is simply too big and too valuable for such a small theater group to go it alone.
I had the same question so thanks for asking. Guessing they could also use the new one.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 26, 2025Dumb question: but does Clayton High School have a theater?framer wrote: ↑Mar 26, 2025You have to assume they've been in talks with developers to partner with them on developing other portions of the site. The land is simply too big and too valuable for such a small theater group to go it alone.
Yes they doSTLinCHI wrote: ↑Mar 26, 2025They did in 1978! Pretty nice one.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 26, 2025Dumb question: but does Clayton High School have a theater?framer wrote: ↑Mar 26, 2025You have to assume they've been in talks with developers to partner with them on developing other portions of the site. The land is simply too big and too valuable for such a small theater group to go it alone.
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I love the Orpheum and I'd love to see it redeveloped for something, but I don't think OTSL would be the right user. I haven't been backstage there, but I've worked in a number of other halls of similar size and vintage. It's a 1910ish hall built for plays and melodramas. Based on that, I'd guess the stage probably isn't big enough, there probably isn't enough dressing room space, the pit is probably way too small, and there's almost certainly not enough shop space. Opera is not really a minimalist art form. You need more of everything. Bigger casts, more musicians, elaborate sets, more costumes, more props . . . just more. And you'd be back in a conventional proscenium hall; one where the audience sits on one side of the stage's "fourth wall" and the action all takes place on the other side. Mind you, I'm not opposed to proscenium theatres. (Most of the halls I've worked and played in are of this sort.) They're pretty traditional for a reason. But OTSL has gained a lot from being in a more intimate space. And if they're going to give that up I think they'd be better off going big, full season, and original language, which means a bigger, more capable hall with better ancillary spaces than Orpheum likely has. The Blanchitorium is a good, solid traditional opera house with all the trimmings, though the location isn't ideal and the schedule might be a problem. The Kiel might work, though it's old and there are probably issues. (Again, haven't been backstage in that one, so all I know is what's publicly available. Probably not a lot of shop space and the stage looks smaller than I would have guessed.) And again, scheduling could be an issue. There's a few other halls, but everything I can think of would have issues, especially since most of them already have a resident company.
But honestly, if they're moving and they want to keep their magic formula they'll probably need a purpose-built structure. The Loretto Hilton is a pretty special little hall. There's nothing else quite like it in town. There's a couple of other thrust stages, but not one with decent stage machinery behind it that I'm aware of, or the same amount of ancillary space like dressing rooms or shops. That said, the idea that there isn't enough space in the sea of parking lots and grass fields that is Midtown seems humorous to me. No, you couldn't get directly on Grand unless you can get the VA to cough up their parking lot. (Which I'd have sworn Grand Center owned twenty years ago, but times do change.) But go a block down Delmar one way or the other. Or Sam Sheppard. There's plenty of underutilized space . . . if you can convince someone to sell. (Which is always the rub.)
That said, I do wish OTSL the best. It's an interesting organization. (And hey, half their season is in the original language this year.)
But honestly, if they're moving and they want to keep their magic formula they'll probably need a purpose-built structure. The Loretto Hilton is a pretty special little hall. There's nothing else quite like it in town. There's a couple of other thrust stages, but not one with decent stage machinery behind it that I'm aware of, or the same amount of ancillary space like dressing rooms or shops. That said, the idea that there isn't enough space in the sea of parking lots and grass fields that is Midtown seems humorous to me. No, you couldn't get directly on Grand unless you can get the VA to cough up their parking lot. (Which I'd have sworn Grand Center owned twenty years ago, but times do change.) But go a block down Delmar one way or the other. Or Sam Sheppard. There's plenty of underutilized space . . . if you can convince someone to sell. (Which is always the rub.)
That said, I do wish OTSL the best. It's an interesting organization. (And hey, half their season is in the original language this year.)
Not saying an opera house in St. Louis would be built to these standards but they typicality have massive backstage areas compared to other theatres.
Copenhagen Opera House for reference:
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Copenhagen Opera House for reference:
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OTSTL was looking for a space where they can have a big outdoor area. The venue itself is just one of few things they’re looking on putting on this site. What they’re getting here is about 5.25-5.5 acres
Orpheum site is about .40 of an acre
Orpheum site is about .40 of an acre
What would be the purpose of the "big outdoor area"? Code word for parking?
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That is what I was driving at, yes. I think what you're seeing there is not just the stage and wings, but shop space and scene docks surrounding it. The "stage" is really only one of the six boxes on the right, the one closest to the horseshoe. But having that amount of space in the wings gives you a lot of flexibility. A lot of larger opera companies will use what's called "rotating rep" so an audience member can catch an entire season's worth of productions in a week or two. (Productions of the complete Ring cycle, for instance, work like this.) Each show of the season "rotates" through with none playing more than maybe a day, even though the run of the show might be several months. Sets will often be large box sets built from several "wagons" so that the whole thing can be rolled on and off stage fairly quickly, negating the need for a traditional "load in/load out" where the whole set is broken down and transported off site for storage.aprice wrote: ↑Mar 31, 2025Not saying an opera house in St. Louis would be built to these standards but they typicality have massive backstage areas compared to other theatres.
Copenhagen Opera House for reference:
There are a few theatres in town that mimic that a bit on a smaller scale, but none where you have five extra stages' worth of space immediately at hand in the wings. (Save maybe the MUNY, now that I think of it. They might. But they too are about all the muchness all the time.) Touhil has enormous wings and a monster of a stage, but the scene dock itself looked to be below the stage, which isn't quite as flexible . . . unless you're the Met, but that'll wait for another day. The Loretto Hilton I believe had shops and scene docks adjacent to the stage, but on a much smaller scale since it's a much smaller stage. That said, the Rep, who also use the hall, do in fact sometimes do rotating rep.
My guess is whatever OTSL builds it won't be a true European style horseshoe opera house with a ten story football field behind the plaster line. It'll probably be an intimate opera house similar to the Loretto Hilton, but without needing to share it with the Rep and Webster U functions. At a guess. That could give them the capacity to have a season with a half dozen shows, or maybe even more. As I think about it, that's probably why they're doing it. And sure, there are halls they could use that are dark right now, like Scottish Rite, but they're probably none of them a good fit. I'm getting on board with this. I really wish they'd find a way to cobble together some parking lots in Midtown, but . . . I'll live with it. They truly do need their own hall, and it really is a different kind of animal from any other hall in town.
In this case, no, probably not. Historically they had picnics on the lawn before shows. I haven't been in years, so I don't know if they still do, but it's a not uncommon opera thing. I'm guessing that's what they're going for. Probably also some outdoor performance space.Tim wrote: ↑Mar 31, 2025What would be the purpose of the "big outdoor area"? Code word for parking?
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I'd still like to see a SceneAround/Stage Around type theater built in town somewhere.
Just to throw a little more (tongue in cheek) shade at the supposed outdoor space "limitations"...
...It really is too bad that there isn't a nice, outdoor, civic gathering place near the Orpheum.
...It really is too bad that there isn't a nice, outdoor, civic gathering place near the Orpheum.
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^Sure, but as we've already established, the Orpheum isn't the right hall for them for other reasons. I get the desire. I really do. I want to see that hall open and in use. It's a truly majestic space with a whale of a lot of potential . . . for something else. It'd make a rocking club. It could be a marvelous little concert hall. It'd be a great event space. It might even be a great place to watch a particularly special movie. It could even be a nice road house on the truck and bus circuit. (Which might include a small opera from time to time, even.) But it's not the right hall for any but the very smallest of producing companies, and OTSL isn't that. The more I thought about it the more sense it made that they really do need a hall of their own if they're going to grow. It may well be that there simply aren't any halls in town other than L-H that would even begin to meet their needs, and even that one puts some limitations on them. It makes me honestly curious what they intend with the campus. I understand the frustration with not putting the thing somewhere more accessible. And it really frustrates me that they can't find enough "space" in neighborhoods bombed out with surface parking and greenspace. But I think I might have to cheer for this one anyway. It's not a terrible use, and it's an organization I really ought to be paying closer attention to anyway. (Get my butt out of my little community orchestra bubble. You've got me thinking about Union Avenue now too, since . . . well . . . maybe I know some folks who play there and I should really go catch one of their shows too.)
I saw two shows there when it was the American Theater - Moby and Beck (separately). Both were incredible.
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I wish this was going in the Orpheum Theatre downtown. We need to save that place and it feels like the perfect venue size and design for STL opera. And it continues to get ignored as an abandoned building downtown.Dbehrens0111 wrote: ↑Dec 22, 2025https://www.stlmag.com/culture/opera-th ... n-clayton/
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I would agree. I would like to see all of the arts closer to Grand Center, but the Orpheum needs a tenant.keepstlbrick wrote: ↑Dec 22, 2025I wish this was going in the Orpheum Theatre downtown. We need to save that place and it feels like the perfect venue size and design for STL opera. And it continues to get ignored as an abandoned building downtown.Dbehrens0111 wrote: ↑Dec 22, 2025https://www.stlmag.com/culture/opera-th ... n-clayton/
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It's a lovely old hall, but it's not what OTSL wants or needs. As a growing opera company they need a bigger stage, a much much much bigger orchestra pit, more dressing room space, shop space and storage space, rehearsal space, practice rooms and the list goes on. A historic vaudeville house with a modest stage, a small pit, and a few dressing rooms, simply won't cut it, no matter how lovely. OTSL is simply too big for the space, and too ambitious by far.keepstlbrick wrote: ↑Dec 22, 2025I wish this was going in the Orpheum Theatre downtown. We need to save that place and it feels like the perfect venue size and design for STL opera. And it continues to get ignored as an abandoned building downtown.Dbehrens0111 wrote: ↑Dec 22, 2025https://www.stlmag.com/culture/opera-th ... n-clayton/
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I very much want to see the Orpheum saved, but that's a subject for a different thread. This? This is exciting. Would I prefer to see them in Midtown or Downtown? Sure. But OTSL needs their own hall (campus, really) built to their own specs, and that requires space. The Caleres site has what they need in a location that will work reasonably well for them at a price they can afford.
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So prime Clayton real estate sales for just $15m and it does to a non profit? Big win for downtown STL
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Getting OTSL inside 170 is a win. Grand Center would have been better. But they don’t have that much programming. It’s one month a year. Maybe they plan to have year round programming someday but that feels like a ways off
I don't think it says much about Clayton at all other than when prime office comes online it will continue to be in Downtown Clayton. Another Class A tower will get built, sooner rather than later, in DT Clayton given the success of the two most recent project. Using your reasoning / logic its a BIG L for the region.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 23, 2025So prime Clayton real estate sales for just $15m and it does to a non profit? Big win for downtown STL
Umm, clearly you missed the part in the article where it says "the Caleres company headquarters in Clayton ... has been described as “the most valuable real estate in the St. Louis area.”"dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 23, 2025So prime Clayton real estate sales for just $15m and it does to a non profit? Big win for downtown STL
Maybe the OSTL realtor was just that good
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I’m a downtown homer but not sure what makes that a win for downtown StL