This is a L for Clayton. They’re losing a F500 campus for a non-profit theater company that only holds shows in June.
My opinion is that describing this in win/loss terms is premature. It is a different direction than predicted. Caleres was always leaving this site. The city will lose some property tax revenue. Clayton's current and past comprehensive plans envision something different for the site, but have also envisioned a similar venue in the community. The opera is interested in programing beyond just what they do. I think having this in Grand Center would've been ideal, but it will be interesting to see how downtown Clayton evolves given this use, the recent comp plan, and the recent zoning changes.
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1) Caleres isn’t a F500 company. It’s ranked 983 currently.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Dec 24, 2025This is a L for Clayton. They’re losing a F500 campus for a non-profit theater company that only holds shows in June.
2) Clayton isn’t losing Caleres. It’s moving right down the street into two buildings that will give them a more urban office set up than their current campus.
3) OTSL is pursuing partners that will bring programming year round.
I wish Caleres was downtown and OTSL was in Grand Center, but this isn’t an L for anyone.
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Pursuing year round programming does not mean they have year round programming. This property generates more than $1MM in property taxes and it’s coming off the rolls. That’s an L
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I'm assuming their offices will also move to Clayton, so I wonder what Webster University will do with the current building on their campus.
On Reddit (I know) I got called dumb and a "hater of culture" because I simply said I'd prefer the Opera Company expand to Grand Center and the Calres site to become residential.
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Clayton can handle a tax hit and this is a W for OTSL, which I think is the more important consideration here. They'll be able to expand their season and tailor the hall to their own needs. And I expect there will be rental tenants in Clayton that will want the auditorium for events like corporate meetings at the very least, which will help to support their mission. There are certainly other arts organizations around town that need to rent a hall. But importantly, OTSL will get to set the calendar. They'll have the hall when they want it. Organizing a season at the mercy of someone else's needs is a real challenge. You don't get the ideal dates. It can be nearly impossible to add dates. This might not be the location I would have picked, but it's a good organization and I'm happy to see them expand. I fail to see how this is possibly a loss to anyone. Could it have been a bigger win? Maybe. There might have been better locations, but everything is a tradeoff. There's a non-zero chance that anywhere else they would have built would also have taken something off the tax rolls. The stars aligned for OTSL to get a space they can use to build whatever they want. It's a decent location, all considered, if not an absolutely perfect one.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Dec 25, 2025Pursuing year round programming does not mean they have year round programming. This property generates more than $1MM in property taxes and it’s coming off the rolls. That’s an L
Tend to agree with JJG. There were better places for OTSTL to go from an urban development standpoint. Both Grand Center and downtown would have been preferable, especially the Orpheum.
As for this particular location, I feel that housing is what I'd most prefer, especially over an entertainment facility that will be relatively inactive. We need to get more housing built in desireable parts of the region, especially Clayton. The loss of the tax revenue is a bigger deal than it appears on the surface, especially when you consider it's not like all of Clayton's office buildings are necessarily going to be increasing in value over time like they have for decades, as seen by Clayton's vacancy sitting around where downtown was pre-covid. There were just better uses for this land than what it will be used for, even if this development is not the worst thing in the world.
I'm kinda annoyed nothing has happened with the old jail or whatever it was that was torn down and is now just an underutilized park? What's the deal with that??
As for this particular location, I feel that housing is what I'd most prefer, especially over an entertainment facility that will be relatively inactive. We need to get more housing built in desireable parts of the region, especially Clayton. The loss of the tax revenue is a bigger deal than it appears on the surface, especially when you consider it's not like all of Clayton's office buildings are necessarily going to be increasing in value over time like they have for decades, as seen by Clayton's vacancy sitting around where downtown was pre-covid. There were just better uses for this land than what it will be used for, even if this development is not the worst thing in the world.
I'm kinda annoyed nothing has happened with the old jail or whatever it was that was torn down and is now just an underutilized park? What's the deal with that??
The Caleres site is partially becoming housing. The parking lot to the east was just approved for a development. The western most building is marketed separately with housing becoming the most likely development. OTSL is taking most of the land, but not all.StlAlex wrote: ↑Dec 26, 2025Tend to agree with JJG. There were better places for OTSTL to go from an urban development standpoint. Both Grand Center and downtown would have been preferable, especially the Orpheum.
As for this particular location, I feel that housing is what I'd most prefer, especially over an entertainment facility that will be relatively inactive. We need to get more housing built in desireable parts of the region, especially Clayton. The loss of the tax revenue is a bigger deal than it appears on the surface, especially when you consider it's not like all of Clayton's office buildings are necessarily going to be increasing in value over time like they have for decades, as seen by Clayton's vacancy sitting around where downtown was pre-covid. There were just better uses for this land than what it will be used for, even if this development is not the worst thing in the world.
I'm kinda annoyed nothing has happened with the old jail or whatever it was that was torn down and is now just an underutilized park? What's the deal with that??
As for the underutilized park, are you referring to the one next to Enterprise? They took ownership with no plans for utilization other than the park space provided.
Yes the one by Enterprise. That's worth a lot more criticism than the Caleres site imo. No reason that piece of land should just be a mostly un-used park.Echo_216 wrote:The Caleres site is partially becoming housing. The parking lot to the east was just approved for a development. The western most building is marketed separately with housing becoming the most likely development. OTSL is taking most of the land, but not all.StlAlex wrote: ↑Dec 26, 2025Tend to agree with JJG. There were better places for OTSTL to go from an urban development standpoint. Both Grand Center and downtown would have been preferable, especially the Orpheum.
As for this particular location, I feel that housing is what I'd most prefer, especially over an entertainment facility that will be relatively inactive. We need to get more housing built in desireable parts of the region, especially Clayton. The loss of the tax revenue is a bigger deal than it appears on the surface, especially when you consider it's not like all of Clayton's office buildings are necessarily going to be increasing in value over time like they have for decades, as seen by Clayton's vacancy sitting around where downtown was pre-covid. There were just better uses for this land than what it will be used for, even if this development is not the worst thing in the world.
I'm kinda annoyed nothing has happened with the old jail or whatever it was that was torn down and is now just an underutilized park? What's the deal with that??
As for the underutilized park, are you referring to the one next to Enterprise? They took ownership with no plans for utilization other than the park space provided.
Who owns that empty lot that used to be the "juvie" building. Is that the County still or did Enterprise buy it?StlAlex wrote: ↑Dec 26, 2025Yes the one by Enterprise. That's worth a lot more criticism than the Caleres site imo. No reason that piece of land should just be a mostly un-used park.Echo_216 wrote:The Caleres site is partially becoming housing. The parking lot to the east was just approved for a development. The western most building is marketed separately with housing becoming the most likely development. OTSL is taking most of the land, but not all.StlAlex wrote: ↑Dec 26, 2025Tend to agree with JJG. There were better places for OTSTL to go from an urban development standpoint. Both Grand Center and downtown would have been preferable, especially the Orpheum.
As for this particular location, I feel that housing is what I'd most prefer, especially over an entertainment facility that will be relatively inactive. We need to get more housing built in desireable parts of the region, especially Clayton. The loss of the tax revenue is a bigger deal than it appears on the surface, especially when you consider it's not like all of Clayton's office buildings are necessarily going to be increasing in value over time like they have for decades, as seen by Clayton's vacancy sitting around where downtown was pre-covid. There were just better uses for this land than what it will be used for, even if this development is not the worst thing in the world.
I'm kinda annoyed nothing has happened with the old jail or whatever it was that was torn down and is now just an underutilized park? What's the deal with that??
As for the underutilized park, are you referring to the one next to Enterprise? They took ownership with no plans for utilization other than the park space provided.
One of the dreams is Enterprise Mobility moves downtown then sells that entire parcel (besides the nursing home) for a denser development.
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If they extended a sidewalk west from the Clayton metro station between the tracks then had it spill out on to Hanley then this parcel would become very compelling TOD
Owner is listed as CLAYTON CORPORATE PARK MANAGEMENT LLC. Which is the same as the enterprise buildings owner.dweebe wrote: ↑Dec 26, 2025Who owns that empty lot that used to be the "juvie" building. Is that the County still or did Enterprise buy it?StlAlex wrote: ↑Dec 26, 2025Yes the one by Enterprise. That's worth a lot more criticism than the Caleres site imo. No reason that piece of land should just be a mostly un-used park.Echo_216 wrote: The Caleres site is partially becoming housing. The parking lot to the east was just approved for a development. The western most building is marketed separately with housing becoming the most likely development. OTSL is taking most of the land, but not all.
As for the underutilized park, are you referring to the one next to Enterprise? They took ownership with no plans for utilization other than the park space provided.
One of the dreams is Enterprise Mobility moves downtown then sells that entire parcel (besides the nursing home) for a denser development.
Used to be a streetcar that ran Clayton - Brentwood - Kirwood. The best thing that could happen to Mid county would be for some kind of fixed rail transit down Brentwood from Clayton to Webster and let all those parking lots heal with form-based TOD. I always find those 3 or 4 random towers down by Brentwood and Eagar so fascinating. The tiny glimmer of ambition they evoke compared to all the TIF garbage surrounding them, what could've been...GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Dec 26, 2025If they extended a sidewalk west from the Clayton metro station between the tracks then had it spill out on to Hanley then this parcel would become very compelling TOD
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Scottish Rite is hitting the market. I hope Opera Theater considers it instead of the Caleres campus
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Bad timing, would have been a perfect venue style and location
I disagree with location. Opera Company most likely wants someplace economically and demographically compatible with their audience. If you catch my drift.keepstlbrick wrote: ↑10:49 PM - Feb 16Bad timing, would have been a perfect venue style and location
And venue-wise wouldn't it maybe be too big? 2200 is way too much of a jump coming from the 800ish seat venue they're at now.
I think becoming a grand auditorium and academic building for SLU would be great - build the performing arts curriculum around itJaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑8:17 PM - Feb 16Scottish Rite is hitting the market. I hope Opera Theater considers it instead of the Caleres campus
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I think OTSL knows what they need and what they're doing. Scottish Rite is glorious, but it's also probably not the right venue for them. It'd probably be a more challenging venue for a young singer. I don't recall seeing much of a pit in the footage I've seen. The seating is . . . strange. I like the SLU idea but that probably deserves its own thread.
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The parking lot is being redeveloped. Check out the thread for 61 topton way