I feel like we should be basing the gateway mall off of millennium park in Chicago, while we don't have much room for similar institutions, Millenium park is a great example of how powerful well-built downtown park space can be. Keiner, the arch grounds, and city garden are a great start but the western park needs a lot of work. The area around the city view apartments is very inactive and uninspiring especially, but that also has to do with the nature of the street wall. I really liked the plan for the mall that design downtown stl made a few years ago. https://downtownstl.org/design-downtown-stl/
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Honestly, going by the amount of red blocks on page 14, there are 19 “spaces” or blocks to be enhanced. By my count 11 of them have received some form of enhancement. I’d say 11 blocks in 14 years is pretty good honestly. Now are these enhancements the “all in” type? Not in every case such as the fountains at aloe plaza receiving new lighting yet the rest of the block was left untouched.rbb wrote:The Gateway Mall Master Plan is here: https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... r-plan.cfm
And this is a screenshot showing the vision for the block between 10th & 11th streets. It does imply more than what's there today:
-RBB
My 11 block count could be wrong though.
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An Aloe Plaza refresh should really be a short term priority with the increased activity from Union Station/City Park/Downtown West Development. There isn't anything particularly wrong with the plaza, but it does feel dingy and underutilized.
Ideally, I would like to see some kind of restaurant or cafe space built into the eastern hillside with outdoor seating spilling out by the fountain.
Ideally, I would like to see some kind of restaurant or cafe space built into the eastern hillside with outdoor seating spilling out by the fountain.
I only count eight. The Aloe Plaza Extension, Soldiers Memorial and its reflecting pool, both Citygarden blocks and Kiener Plaza. Plus, the Old Courthouse and Luther Square, but those aren't considered part of the master plan. Nine if you include the Civil Courts block as the police and Freedom Suits memorials look pretty good. But it could use some updates like bump outs and some fresher landscaping, plus Brickline's "hallway" that will eventually run the length of Market.LArchitecture wrote: ↑Jul 03, 2023Honestly, going by the amount of red blocks on page 14, there are 19 “spaces” or blocks to be enhanced. By my count 11 of them have received some form of enhancement. I’d say 11 blocks in 14 years is pretty good honestly. Now are these enhancements the “all in” type? Not in every case such as the fountains at aloe plaza receiving new lighting yet the rest of the block was left untouched.
My 11 block count could be wrong though.
I personally wouldn't count Aloe Plaza...that block looks like sh*t compared to the investments recently made around it. A full upgrade and tying the west side of it into the MLS plazas should be a priority as Harv said.
I still think Harv has the best idea for Twain as well. Cladding it in whatever the Bean is clad in would be an immediate draw. I don't know the legality or ethics of modifying someone's work, but it would be an instant hit. Judging by the 2009 master plan it appears the pathways and landscaping from Citygarden was to be extended into the Twain block anyway.
The sculpture could remain in place with its intended purpose of viewing the city through different angles just with some interesting reflections and visuals added. Fill the center with pavers so people could mill about. The outside could host additional sculptures as an extension of the garden.
The plan to rip out 9th St and this rendering showing 17th closed too makes me think about what other streets could be closed or altered, the changes I'd like to see are:sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jul 06, 2023I only count eight. The Aloe Plaza Extension, Soldiers Memorial and its reflecting pool, both Citygarden blocks and Kiener Plaza. Plus, the Old Courthouse and Luther Square, but those aren't considered part of the master plan. Nine if you include the Civil Courts block as the police and Freedom Suits memorials look pretty good. But it could use some updates like bump outs and some fresher landscaping, plus Brickline's "hallway" that will eventually run the length of Market.LArchitecture wrote: ↑Jul 03, 2023Honestly, going by the amount of red blocks on page 14, there are 19 “spaces” or blocks to be enhanced. By my count 11 of them have received some form of enhancement. I’d say 11 blocks in 14 years is pretty good honestly. Now are these enhancements the “all in” type? Not in every case such as the fountains at aloe plaza receiving new lighting yet the rest of the block was left untouched.
My 11 block count could be wrong though.
I personally wouldn't count Aloe Plaza...that block looks like sh*t compared to the investments recently made around it. A full upgrade and tying the west side of it into the MLS plazas should be a priority as Harv said.
I still think Harv has the best idea for Twain as well. Cladding it in whatever the Bean is clad in would be an immediate draw. I don't know the legality or ethics of modifying someone's work, but it would be an instant hit. Judging by the 2009 master plan it appears the pathways and landscaping from Citygarden was to be extended into the Twain block anyway.
The sculpture could remain in place with its intended purpose of viewing the city through different angles just with some interesting reflections and visuals added. Fill the center with pavers so people could mill about. The outside could host additional sculptures as an extension of the garden.
- close Chestnut to cars and convert it into a 2-way cycle path linking up with Brickline at City Park
- close 17th, 15th, and 13th at the Mall to create a more continuous park and fewer car/cyclist interactions
- close 11th and close the 11th street interstate exit (it's a left exit and the 14th street exit could be reworked to add access to Tucker if needed)
- close 4th street at the Mall and convert Broadway into a 2-way street for it's length downtown
I think that doing all or some of these proposals would help to make the Mall a cohesive urban park instead of feeling like a series of disjointed block-sized plazas
Hard pass on closing any streets.
9th in Citygarden is fine and I would be OK with 17th. No more than that though.
9th in Citygarden is fine and I would be OK with 17th. No more than that though.
I lean the other way, there are way too many multi-lane streets and it makes downtown a less pleasant way to be. There are already multiple ways to get into downtown with a car, ideally drivers should enter downtown closest to their destination rather than driving all the way across. The streets should be designed to get around on foot or on bike instead.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jul 06, 2023Hard pass on closing any streets.
9th in Citygarden is fine and I would be OK with 17th. No more than that though.
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Recounting now I’m just getting 10 but I am breaking CG and Soldiers Memorial into 2 as the graphic shows them as separate blocks.
I agree with Harv and SC about improvements though in regards to Aloe and Serra. CG should be extended no questions about that almost identical to how the master plan shows it and use all the same materiality. Aloe needs a glass box building like on CG that relates to the MLS Stadium with some sort of terraced seating.
The only additional road that should be closed for sure is 17th. Then that long block, and maybe more, created should 100% be redesigned in a similar manner to Gene Leahy in Omaha since it’s counted as the “residential” zone.
I could maybe get on board with 13th being closed but there is no way I would ever see chestnut closed to bike lanes. Why would we do a cycle track there if Brickline is coming down Market already? Why make it inconvenient for bikers? Let’s squeeze Market of its width as it’s doing a great job on the MLS block already. Then when Brickline is installed rip out chestnut bike lane and extend those blocks to have another allee of trees like the southern edge of the mall or a great streetscape design of some kind at least.
I agree with Harv and SC about improvements though in regards to Aloe and Serra. CG should be extended no questions about that almost identical to how the master plan shows it and use all the same materiality. Aloe needs a glass box building like on CG that relates to the MLS Stadium with some sort of terraced seating.
The only additional road that should be closed for sure is 17th. Then that long block, and maybe more, created should 100% be redesigned in a similar manner to Gene Leahy in Omaha since it’s counted as the “residential” zone.
I could maybe get on board with 13th being closed but there is no way I would ever see chestnut closed to bike lanes. Why would we do a cycle track there if Brickline is coming down Market already? Why make it inconvenient for bikers? Let’s squeeze Market of its width as it’s doing a great job on the MLS block already. Then when Brickline is installed rip out chestnut bike lane and extend those blocks to have another allee of trees like the southern edge of the mall or a great streetscape design of some kind at least.
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Was in Omaha last week and the best thing I saw was by far the Gene Lahey Mall and Riverfront Park. THIS is how you build a downtown mall. It's insane how much amenity they crammed into a few city blocks:
- Nearly a dozen gas firepits and seating areas around each one for hanging out with family and friends
- Hundreds if not thousands of places to sit. Tables and chairs EVERYWHERE. Even permeant hammocks
- Beautiful band stand
- Several high quality public restrooms
- Insane high quality playground with rock climbing walls integrated into the structure
- Dog Park
- Public art everywhere, nearly the density of City Garden throughout the mall
- The Downtown Slides, which were getting sold use despite the chilly darkness
- The Skate Ribbon (look it up it's cool as hell) and associated skate rental booth
- River overlook facing the Missouri
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Skate ribbon does look cool. Could see something like it on the block between Library and soldiers memorial...
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I am going to be part of a panel interviewed next week about the Gateway Mall and things to do there, ULI is doing it for Greater STL inc and SLDC- so if you have suggestions on how to make the gateway mall better post'em
also my alder has appointed me to the Citizens Advisory committee for capital improvement projects- so if there are any projects for the downtown part of the 14th ward let me know.
also my alder has appointed me to the Citizens Advisory committee for capital improvement projects- so if there are any projects for the downtown part of the 14th ward let me know.
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Thanks DB. Are the parks north of Chestnut technically a part of the mall?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jan 06, 2024I am going to be part of a panel interviewed next week about the Gateway Mall and things to do there, ULI is doing it for Greater STL inc and SLDC- so if you have suggestions on how to make the gateway mall better post'em
also my alder has appointed me to the Citizens Advisory committee for capital improvement projects- so if there are any projects for the downtown part of the 14th ward let me know.
Some ideas.
Bring Taste of St. Louis back to the mall.
SLSO summer concert series.
Work to attract a music festival.
Farmer’s market.
And most controversially, hold a vote to strip the portion west of 15th of park status, put it out for redevelopment and get it back on the tax rolls.
Much like Clayton's Parties in The Park, have Friday after work programming and focus on area between Tucker and 15th, Market and Pine. Run from April through September. Work with local restaurants and food trucks to tie in. Create an actual reason to clear homeless presence every week.
Pay local independent musicians an hourly wage to setup and encourage them to collect tips. Doesn’t need to be a full concert with equipment, just a person and an instrument. The mall should have three to five musicians all weekend long.
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this was actually done this spring/summer and fall all around downtown including the mall, i think GSL is bringing it backaddxb2 wrote: ↑Jan 06, 2024Pay local independent musicians an hourly wage to setup and encourage them to collect tips. Doesn’t need to be a full concert with equipment, just a person and an instrument. The mall should have three to five musicians all weekend long.
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I think we could probably reduce the number of streets crossing the mall considerably and narrow lanes in what's left. It could use some help becoming a pleasant place to walk when nothing is going on. Maybe better landscaping, different trees. The low trees and high streetlights make the interiors feel rather dark at night in the more western blocks. It'd be a great place for taller trees with light under them instead of over them. The sculpture garden has done wonders for the eastern blocks, making them feel more inviting and more unified. More of that can't hurt; more sculpture, more landscaping, more visual interest to keep visitors engaged as they wander through.
- Reduce Market St. Width
- Either sidewalk all the parking at Kiener or re open it
- Put evolution festival downtown or lure another festival.
- Move all festivals back - taste of stl, q in the lou, etc. I love that they're trying to add programming at the arch, but this is just so much more centrally located IMO.
- I agree with Jane Jacobs on the park land.
The mall needs to be commercialized to activate it. Imagine if the mall had some restaurant venues built within it like the retail space in city garden, but with some real crowd pleasers like Ted Drew’s, toasted ravs, Imo’s, gooey butter cake, names even people in wentzville know. These are all beloved symbols of STL that are not easily found in downtown. It would be like if you couldn’t easily find Philly cheesesteaks in Center City Philadelphia. I am certain a ted Drew’s would be a big hit before and after sports games and it could get people further acclimated to the idea of walking around downtown and staying a while. Think of the McBarge floating McDonald’s from the 90s. It was kitchy and dumb, but it was popular and it brought people to the riverfront.
We should also paint and put fancy lights on the keiner garages until we can get those hideous things redeveloped and turn that never staffed visitors center into something that brings people.
Even if it’s unfair, It’s important to remember that a significant percentage of the region is neurotically terrified of downtown crime. Downtown feels a bit dour and serious which does not help, so I think the focus with the mall should be whimsical, fun, and family friendly. City garden already does this pretty well. playgrounds, cookout areas, more public art, good lighting, security cameras, are all good ideas.
It’s a linear park, so everything north of Chestnut should be closed and developed on to activate the linear space, but if that isn’t possible, maybe you could build Pickleball or volleyball courts. Right now, those lots are functionally empty lots.
We should also paint and put fancy lights on the keiner garages until we can get those hideous things redeveloped and turn that never staffed visitors center into something that brings people.
Even if it’s unfair, It’s important to remember that a significant percentage of the region is neurotically terrified of downtown crime. Downtown feels a bit dour and serious which does not help, so I think the focus with the mall should be whimsical, fun, and family friendly. City garden already does this pretty well. playgrounds, cookout areas, more public art, good lighting, security cameras, are all good ideas.
It’s a linear park, so everything north of Chestnut should be closed and developed on to activate the linear space, but if that isn’t possible, maybe you could build Pickleball or volleyball courts. Right now, those lots are functionally empty lots.
Soften street scapes with trees and other plantings.
More pedestrian corridors. I know a couple are planned. The more the better.
Protected bike lanes.
Reduce Market width.
Road diets. I know Tucker is planned. The more the better.
Fix sidewalks and streets.
Incentivize development and small business.
More pedestrian corridors. I know a couple are planned. The more the better.
Protected bike lanes.
Reduce Market width.
Road diets. I know Tucker is planned. The more the better.
Fix sidewalks and streets.
Incentivize development and small business.
Great ideas here. If every block was activated with a few amenities mentioned above along with the programming possibilities, the Mall could be quite the center of activity. 13th, 15th and 17th streets are not through streets south of the mall, so removing them wouldn't reduce connectivity over what's already been established. To really get things right, it would seem necessary to remove most of the mature trees and go with a clean slate design.
Remove the pointless 17th street cut
Realign and 15th to 18th - reduce Market and give it well defined edges with a continuation of the Brick Line as it exists in front of City Park
Develop this w/ a promenade anchored on the east by "civic plaza" that would function as farmers market/ outdoor living room / concert space up to 500 March through October and be a regulation size ice rink Nov-Feb. A permanent structure containing winter skate rental and summer bar
Moving west the promenade would be flanked with sculpture/landscape to the north and yard games to the south (bocce, table tennis etc...)
Realign and 15th to 18th - reduce Market and give it well defined edges with a continuation of the Brick Line as it exists in front of City Park
Develop this w/ a promenade anchored on the east by "civic plaza" that would function as farmers market/ outdoor living room / concert space up to 500 March through October and be a regulation size ice rink Nov-Feb. A permanent structure containing winter skate rental and summer bar
Moving west the promenade would be flanked with sculpture/landscape to the north and yard games to the south (bocce, table tennis etc...)
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Even easier would be to let the skating rink turn into an outdoor roller rink in the warmer months. Des Moines does this with theirs and it always seems to have people using it
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Dennis, I heard you say they were planning to flatting the oval... does that mean they are removing those trees too? Just curious
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I think the trees will stay
(He’s asking about Kiener plaza, the green space on eastern end is awkward to use right now so it will be brought down to grade with rest of plaza amongst other Kiener improvements coming up)
(He’s asking about Kiener plaza, the green space on eastern end is awkward to use right now so it will be brought down to grade with rest of plaza amongst other Kiener improvements coming up)
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I was asking because I was thinking a movie night could be really cool there, but with leaves on the trees that would make it kind of tough... honestly if there was a spot that could make it work they should have the Taylor Swift concert projected down there in the Spring.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jan 08, 2024I think the trees will stay
(He’s asking about Kiener plaza, the green space on eastern end is awkward to use right now so it will be brought down to grade with rest of plaza amongst other Kiener improvements coming up)
