New bipartisan infrastructure bill would allow cities to sell airports and highways if they put the proceeds into new infrastructure projects.
dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jul 09, 2021During the airport lease drama I talked to one of the bidders and they said it was odd that SW was still in T2 and not flipped over to T1 because concessions were not maximizing profits because it was too crowded and people would give up waiting in line.
I talked to an ex airport worker a few months ago. They said southwest approached the subject of moving but did a cost analysis and decided it wasn’t worth it.
But I agree with the person you talked to. It makes more sense for them to be in T1. Just for expansion sake. D is not a good concourse and it just spreads them out.
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It’s a haul to even go to their last E gate
And yeah I don’t see SW spending the $ to make the switch now, It would have to be Lambert lead effort since they’re the ones to benefit
And yeah I don’t see SW spending the $ to make the switch now, It would have to be Lambert lead effort since they’re the ones to benefit
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If they were to switch over to T1, would that mean they take over C and the other airlines go to T2? Or would it be some other setup?
^ In that scenario, I would think that A would still be open.
I just don't see WN leaving T2, from everything they say they seem to love it.
I just don't see WN leaving T2, from everything they say they seem to love it.
Yea it would almost have to be everyone in C goes to T2.cueball19826 wrote: ↑Jul 09, 2021If they were to switch over to T1, would that mean they take over C and the other airlines go to T2? Or would it be some other setup?
Me 100% guessing here. They like T2 because it is newer and nicer. But it’s getting really stretched out. I measured it at 0.41 miles from E4 to E40. That’s a long way to go if you happen to have a connection that far and if they open more gates it gets to a half mile. They seem to have decided they are good with T2 but at some point you wonder if they want to grow they have to decide what route to take on this. Old D is its own issue with being cramped. I’d like to see them recommit to the expanded baggage claim.
I’ll be interested to see what the new layout plan comes up with.
Southwest is very happy to have their own operations and terminal @ St. Louis International. Their operations here do not require passengers to change Terminals or Concourses. Something that BNA, PDX and LGA also just completed for them to grow there as well.
There has been much talk about MCI (Kansas City's new airport single terminal) growing in the Southwest network, however, Southwest is looking more and more to airports that are "hub" efficient (connecting traffic) with designated use concourse(s) or terminal. Southwest's flights may increase in MCI for point to point loads but I know MCI will NOT pull away Southwest's connection (Hub) airports nearby in STL, BNA and DEN (all established now with growth potential in their own operating concourses/terminals. This is *why* Southwest continues to expand here and *why* they continue to actually say STL will continue to be focused on for growth.
Portland (OR) International did the same for Southwest's growth there last year. Concourse E was built for Southwest's expansion.
PDX New Southwest Terminal: https://thepointsguy.com/news/southwest ... concourse/
BNA New Southwest Terminal: https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/l ... 450678002/
The airline is adding new service to smaller markets across the country and is adding the connection traffic to it's "hubs". International Service additions (like Puerto Rico at STL) are very important at this time to the Southwest network as well.
Say hello to your Southwest hubs.
From: https://thepointsguy.com/news/does-sout ... have-hubs/
"Atlanta (ATL), Baltimore/Washington (BWI), Chicago Midway (MDW), Denver (DEN), Houston Hobby (HOU), Nashville (BNA), Oakland (OAK), Phoenix (PHX) and St. Louis (STL) are the airline’s major connecting airports, according to a presentation by Southwest commercial chief Andrew Watterson in October."
As for walking STL Concourse E (Southwest Terminal)... it *really* isn't *that* bad. Yes it is an impressive walk but the long moving walkway between E33 and new gates to the west helps. Denver and Portland are now a hike to baggage or connections. This isn't anything new with airports that have a hub. If you arrived on TWA at the end of C and connected to TWA a the end of D - that was a hike... but it is what it is. That is where the moving walkways come in.
Speaking of moving walkways... I saw this on the airport update:
2 of 3 moving walkways in C opened today.
Where are these? Anyone?
Thanks.
There has been much talk about MCI (Kansas City's new airport single terminal) growing in the Southwest network, however, Southwest is looking more and more to airports that are "hub" efficient (connecting traffic) with designated use concourse(s) or terminal. Southwest's flights may increase in MCI for point to point loads but I know MCI will NOT pull away Southwest's connection (Hub) airports nearby in STL, BNA and DEN (all established now with growth potential in their own operating concourses/terminals. This is *why* Southwest continues to expand here and *why* they continue to actually say STL will continue to be focused on for growth.
Portland (OR) International did the same for Southwest's growth there last year. Concourse E was built for Southwest's expansion.
PDX New Southwest Terminal: https://thepointsguy.com/news/southwest ... concourse/
BNA New Southwest Terminal: https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/l ... 450678002/
The airline is adding new service to smaller markets across the country and is adding the connection traffic to it's "hubs". International Service additions (like Puerto Rico at STL) are very important at this time to the Southwest network as well.
Say hello to your Southwest hubs.
From: https://thepointsguy.com/news/does-sout ... have-hubs/
"Atlanta (ATL), Baltimore/Washington (BWI), Chicago Midway (MDW), Denver (DEN), Houston Hobby (HOU), Nashville (BNA), Oakland (OAK), Phoenix (PHX) and St. Louis (STL) are the airline’s major connecting airports, according to a presentation by Southwest commercial chief Andrew Watterson in October."
As for walking STL Concourse E (Southwest Terminal)... it *really* isn't *that* bad. Yes it is an impressive walk but the long moving walkway between E33 and new gates to the west helps. Denver and Portland are now a hike to baggage or connections. This isn't anything new with airports that have a hub. If you arrived on TWA at the end of C and connected to TWA a the end of D - that was a hike... but it is what it is. That is where the moving walkways come in.
Speaking of moving walkways... I saw this on the airport update:
2 of 3 moving walkways in C opened today.
Where are these? Anyone?
Thanks.
matguy70 wrote: ↑Jul 09, 2021
Speaking of moving walkways... I saw this on the airport update:
2 of 3 moving walkways in C opened today.
Where are these? Anyone?
Thanks.
Considering the money that they put into C during the last renovation, what is the timeframe for replacing that and/or A?
Whenever that time comes, I'd really like to see A demoed and everyone currently with gates there moved to C or D temporarily. Repurpose B if extra gates are needed.
Then build a unified concourse around the area where A sits now. This concourse would be perfectly situated to allow airlines to use 11 for arrivals and 12R/L for departures during SE operations and 30L/R arrivals with departures on 29 during NW operations. Our new runway would finally see regular use!
Aircraft would have short taxis for both arrivals and departures. No runway crossings and the flow would be very efficient.
Then you deal with WN by expanding T2 in some fashion that doesn't add overall distance between farthest gates.
Pie in the sky?
Whenever that time comes, I'd really like to see A demoed and everyone currently with gates there moved to C or D temporarily. Repurpose B if extra gates are needed.
Then build a unified concourse around the area where A sits now. This concourse would be perfectly situated to allow airlines to use 11 for arrivals and 12R/L for departures during SE operations and 30L/R arrivals with departures on 29 during NW operations. Our new runway would finally see regular use!
Aircraft would have short taxis for both arrivals and departures. No runway crossings and the flow would be very efficient.
Then you deal with WN by expanding T2 in some fashion that doesn't add overall distance between farthest gates.
Pie in the sky?
^ Here are some of the ideas the airport has batted around in the recent past:
My pie-in-the-sky is still a new mid-field terminal...sc4mayor:
That link is paywalled so here are the details. Consultants provided three options for improving Lambert. One was a "no build" re-arranging, two was decommissioning the East Terminal and consolidating everything in a fully renovated Main Terminal and the third option was a full new terminal.
Option One ($141 million). Southwest is consolidated into T1 and "others" are moved to T2.
Option Two ($1.1 billion):Terminal 1's security checkpoints would be relocated to the same level as the check-in hall, allowing for greater airline operational flexibility between its three concourses. (Two concourses, called B and D, are not used for air service). The report also envisioned adding new retail nodes at the entrances of Concourses A and C, and a new customs facility within Concourse B, replacing the current facility in Terminal 2. Positives include that "demand would be better balanced across the terminal campus, with capacity available to enable future growth by all carriers. Current pressure on curbside access at Terminal 2 would be relieved," the report said. Among the downsides are that congestion could be seen at check-in and passenger screening. "The building envelope of Concourse B constrains space for future expansion and limits space for restrooms and offices," it said.
Option Three (New Terminal - $2 billion):It calls for demolishing Concourse D, and decommissioning Concourse E in Terminal 2. Concourses A and C would be widened by 100 feet "to accommodate future up-gauge of aircraft," and Concourse C would be extended to the west. Concourse B would be refurbished with four contact gates. Two international gates would be built between Concourses B and C. And existing security screening processes would all be moved to the upper level. The plan also calls for rebuilding the Terminal 1 garage, and building a 4,350-space garage on the site of the existing parking lot A.
Edit: My two cents...I also would be fine with Option One. I think moving SWA to T1 and a really high quality renovation to bring the terminal up to modern standards would solve a lot of the airport's issues in my opinion. The main hall itself is already a fine centerpiece.A new-build concept would provide "a modern structure for consolidated operations," the report said, adding that it would have 45 contact gates and two ground loading gates, with the ability to expand to 52 gates. It would encompass two levels, with departure and arrivals on the same level. A new pedestrian walking bridge could be built to connect the new facility with the MetroLink stop. And the current Terminal 1, considered architecturally significant, "could be repurposed as new non-aeronautical development," such as a hotel, the report said. A new six-level parking facility would be located across from the terminal, accommodating 4,830 spaces. And a new 1,800-space rental car facility would be located in the garage. It could prove complicated, though. The document says three terminals could be in operation at once during construction, and existing movement on aircraft apron, or the area where planes are parked, would be disrupted.
I also like the idea of a brand new consolidated terminal in Option Three and I like the location they picked out here in terms of connecting to MetroLink and the garages...plus the rental car improvements. But my dream of a new terminal at Lambert has always been for a mid-field terminal closer to 11/29 with access from Lindbergh Blvd. Pros, you can basically isolate the rest of the airport's operations from construction effects, the airport can finally put 11/29 to good use too. Cons, no good MetroLink access, land acquisition, lots of new infrastructure would need to be built etc. Option Two would be my last choice too.
Here are some others jshank posted from the 2012 master plan. This first one kind of has some similarities to your idea, @pdm_ad, at least in terms of demolishing A and extending it further down towards 11/29.
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A 2nd airline expressed interest in a lounge at KSTL in the recent past. The lounge would be around 4,000 sqft. No firm timeline or details but I think it is an idea that came up right before Covid and hasn’t been brought back yet.
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Is there a minimum number of passengers an airline wants to serve at an airport before they consider a lounge? Doesn't seem like Delta or United could support a lounge at STL but maybe I'm just out of touch.
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Admirals club is opening back up on the 26th. It’s been going thru a remodel.
After as much as Delta has pulled back I can’t imagine they are all that interested anymore. I’m also not sure where it would go. They would maybe have to move to C.
After as much as Delta has pulled back I can’t imagine they are all that interested anymore. I’m also not sure where it would go. They would maybe have to move to C.
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After flying from Denver (Terminal B, where they just updated many of the gates and there's even an outdoor patio for you to watch planes land and take off) back to St. Louis yesterday... really made me realize just how meh / worn our airport is. Walking into the baggage claim was definitely a not great experience - hot, humid, and outdated. Plus passenger pick up at Terminal 1 is a cluster ****.
Frontier adding STL-Atlanta starting in September. 3 days a week. Tues/thurs/sun
Stltoday - July 23, 1973 • The worst plane crash in St. Louis history kills 36 people
https://www.stltoday.com/news/archives/ ... a15d1.html
https://www.stltoday.com/news/archives/ ... a15d1.html
Update: They have extended concourse C all the way to C31, and are in the process of re-opening the 3 moving walkways. It is shocking how much these things cost. I heard it directly from one of the managers at the airport that the project cost over $1.2 million, but that may have also included the cost to re-open those extra gates, too. Back in 2015 the concourse only went to C24. Then they extended it to C28. The latest section was opened in May when Spirit airlines came to STL. The only part of "C" concourse still closed are the 6 gates C32-C38 (there is no C37).gregl wrote: ↑Jan 27, 2017The moving walkways in C are past C24, which is the last "active" gate -- even though C28 is used. The moving walkway between C24 and C28 is currently disabled.jshank83 wrote: ↑Jan 27, 2017For some reason I thought there were some in councourse C. Are they gone or just in the part that isn't open anymore? I haven't been in that concourse in at least 15 years. I still remember when I was little wanting to go to cinnabon in that food area right after security.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jan 27, 2017And the restoration of the moving walkways warms my childlike heart. I've missed those things. I get sad every time I'm on one somewhere else. It will be really good to have our own back.(Silly, I know. But true. Those meant "big time" to me. They still do. An airport without them, like O'Hare, is really just small potatoes. Wait . . . )
Greg
Yes. It was mentioned a page back that 2 of 3 walkways already were turned on a couple weeks ago.Scott2222 wrote: ↑Jul 26, 2021Update: They have extended concourse C all the way to C31, and are in the process of re-opening the 3 moving walkways. It is shocking how much these things cost. I heard it directly from one of the managers at the airport that the project cost over $1.2 million, but that may have also included the cost to re-open those extra gates, too. Back in 2015 the concourse only went to C24. Then they extended it to C28. The latest section was opened in May when Spirit airlines came to STL. The only part of "C" concourse still closed are the 6 gates C32-C38 (there is no C37).gregl wrote: ↑Jan 27, 2017The moving walkways in C are past C24, which is the last "active" gate -- even though C28 is used. The moving walkway between C24 and C28 is currently disabled.jshank83 wrote: ↑Jan 27, 2017
For some reason I thought there were some in councourse C. Are they gone or just in the part that isn't open anymore? I haven't been in that concourse in at least 15 years. I still remember when I was little wanting to go to cinnabon in that food area right after security.
Greg
You must have dug way back to find that post you quoted.
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^Things are coming along. And it makes me ten flavors of happy to see AA adding flights. AA has, at times, frustrated the ever living crap out of me, but I sincerely want them to succeed. I'm seriously considering jumping ship and going back to AA. (All my blinking MQMs are going to expire anyway at this rate. I sincerely doubt the big DL will extend them another year just because it's still so blasted hard to go anywhere overseas.)
I’m in the same boat. I like Delta and have a Delta card but I really have little reason to ever fly them anymore with the 5 cities they fly to. I might pocket it and get an AA one. I fly Southwest most of the time but I like to have one international carrier as my go to otherwise. I keep waiting for some kind of international flight announcement to change but with covid still around who knows how long that will take.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jul 27, 2021^Things are coming along. And it makes me ten flavors of happy to see AA adding flights. AA has, at times, frustrated the ever living crap out of me, but I sincerely want them to succeed. I'm seriously considering jumping ship and going back to AA. (All my blinking MQMs are going to expire anyway at this rate. I sincerely doubt the big DL will extend them another year just because it's still so blasted hard to go anywhere overseas.)
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^What with family and friends spread around the globe getting overseas is far and away my most usual sort of flight. I don't really fly that often, but when you make an eighteen thousand mile round trip every year or so and maybe one other overseas trip . . . things add up. I was finally beginning to think we could visit my wife's family every year when the dang plague struck. (Was so looking forward to seeing how quickly we could get status!) Ah well. Easy come easy go.








